Does porn exploit women and is it abusive and misogynistic?

[Daedalus]

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-wh ... es-2012-11

Porn actresses, according to that article, earn between $50,000 and $100,000 a year (many earn upwards of $400,000 per year). A handsome wage to get fucked by a professional and have their gushiest orgasms ever filmed.

So... between a teacher's salary, and a decent income to get fucked in every way possible and risk contracting something... all while facing the social consequences?

Yeah, not an argument that sways me. This is not like an NFL player shortening their functional life-span or fragging their brain for 10's of millions.

You're starting from several false premises - you're assuming that they don't enjoy their work (based on what?), you're suggesting that STDs are an occupational hazard in the porn industry (they are not. In fact, the risk is far higher just having casual sex like the majority of the 20-40 singles in all of the western world), and you're presenting a suggested social stigma as a valid point.

So.. put neutrally, a respectable middle-class income, a job you really must enjoy, and you're getting off with less thrisk. Win, win, win.

Not a job for everyone, granted, but it's just another job.

The notion that they're enjoying their job seems extremely naïve, on par with the myth of the "happy hooker". As for the social stigma... it's real, and whether or not we agree with it the consequences are likewise real.
It's obviously difficult to sort through the competing agendas to find the truth of "enjoyment", but some objective metrics are probably useful.

For one, the casual fact that it's a DIFFICULT job. Porn =! getting fucked a lot on camera, any more than a movie = acting a whole movie from start to finish. The reality of course is that you get there early for makeup like any other filmic role. You'll need to do EVERYTHING shot by shot, from multiple angles, and multiple takes. Based on the porn I've seen, that is bound to be physically and mentally draining after a while. I suspect that the best adjusted porn stars of both genders see it as work, like a higher paying version of any manual labor. Beyond that, the notion that you're "enjoying" it because hey, it's sex... is just mindless.

Hey, you like sex, so have this guy you don't really know do things to you that maybe you like, maybe you don't! It's not a sex act through and though, it's going to be "thrust doggy style. Cut. Ok, good, but lets groan a bit more. Action!" Don't like deepthroathing? Tough, there's going to be a few hours of shooting that. Don't like anal? Tough. Don't want some random guy pulling your hair? Tough. Don't enjoy position X, being tied up, hate your co-worker, etc...? Tough, it's your JOB.

As for social stigma, lets start with the aversion that most people have to having a camera film them fucking for hours, for public consumption by everyone, forever. Have kids? Well someday they might see it, or their friends will. Feel a bit awkward with a room full of people filming and directing you getting fucked? Sure, most people don't feel entirely comfortable being filmed in any situation for public consumption, never mind an HD shot of their genitals. I'm sure that you get past it after a while, and maybe it's objectively irrational, but that doesn't make it less real.

As for STD's... screen every month or not, the reality is that the risk is actually MUCH higher than the average. In fact it's higher than being a legal hooker in Nevada.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/0 ... 58406.html

A study of 168 adult industry actors in Los Angeles County found that 28 percent, or 47 actors, tested positive for either gonorrhea or chlamydia or both.

The report said that in the adult industry, "Undiagnosed asymptomatic ... STIs were common and are likely reservoirs for transmission to sexual partners inside and outside the workplace." The study was conducted in 2010 and written by six public health experts affiliated with the LA County Department of Public Health, the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health and UCLA.

So HIV and Hep C might be less of an issue, but HPV, Syphilis, Chlamydia, Herpes? Yeah, don't kid yourself.

None of this makes it misogynistic or abusive, but it doesn't make it a great job that people enjoy either. One last excellent metric for how much women do or do not enjoy their work is rates of addiction in the industry.

It's worth noting that if you're a big star, the rates are pretty much at the background for society; after all it would be hard to keep up with that kind of industry while screwed up. That being said, porn STARS are a TINY part of the huge porn industry, which as a whole has a lot of addicts and abuse victims.

[Daedalus]

double post

[Audley Strange]

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-wh ... es-2012-11

Porn actresses, according to that article, earn between $50,000 and $100,000 a year (many earn upwards of $400,000 per year). A handsome wage to get fucked by a professional and have their gushiest orgasms ever filmed.

Yeah, looks like I was being generous with the $2500 figure. From that article.

According to Dan Miller, executive managing editor of industry trade magazine XBIZ, there are about 250 "in-demand" women (called "models") who work regularly, shooting between 100 and 150 scenes per year. "A popular girl is going to work a minimum of 10 times per month," he tells THR.

According to Spiegler, there is a relatively straightforward scale for performances by an in-demand actress:

$800 for a girl-girl scene
$1,000 for a guy-girl scene
$1,200 or more for anal sex
$4,000 or more for "double penetration"

[Daedalus]

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-wh ... es-2012-11

Porn actresses, according to that article, earn between $50,000 and $100,000 a year (many earn upwards of $400,000 per year). A handsome wage to get fucked by a professional and have their gushiest orgasms ever filmed.

Yeah, looks like I was being generous with the $2500 figure. From that article.

According to Dan Miller, executive managing editor of industry trade magazine XBIZ, there are about 250 "in-demand" women (called "models") who work regularly, shooting between 100 and 150 scenes per year. "A popular girl is going to work a minimum of 10 times per month," he tells THR.

According to Spiegler, there is a relatively straightforward scale for performances by an in-demand actress:

$800 for a girl-girl scene
$1,000 for a guy-girl scene
$1,200 or more for anal sex
$4,000 or more for "double penetration"

Yeah, the issue is that the industry uses porn STARS to promote the industry in general, but the vast majority of workers are not stars, never were, and never will be.

[Audley Strange]

Yeah, the issue is that the industry uses porn STARS to promote the industry in general, but the vast majority of workers are not stars, never were, and never will be.

Well thats the same with most "actors".

I agree though. There is a larger discussion here, not just about legitimised clutch of U.S. porn businesses. Anyone here think that trafficked sex slaves have never appeared in such flicks?

The argument is, to me, similar to saying licenced medical cannabis shops are representative of the global drug trade.

[Daedalus]

Yeah, the issue is that the industry uses porn STARS to promote the industry in general, but the vast majority of workers are not stars, never were, and never will be.

Well thats the same with most "actors".

I agree though. There is a larger discussion here, not just about legitimised clutch of U.S. porn businesses. Anyone here think that trafficked sex slaves have never appeared in such flicks?

The argument is, to me, similar to saying licenced medical cannabis shops are representative of the global drug trade.

Exactly, and acting in general is neither glamorous, nor is it easy and quick.

As for the idea of sex slaves, I don't know. Personally I suspect that the porn industry would rather draw on the huge pool of men and women who are willing, and of age. After all, they want a scandal like they want a case of herpes. They know their industry is a perpetual scapegoat in waiting, and I find it hard to believe that they'd knowingly allow sexual slavery in the doors. By all accounts, there is no shortage of willing people to take a dick on camera.

As for the last point, exactly.

[Pappa]

So do you mean "debasing" in terms of its effect on the actress's own state of mind? And what does that then mean - that she loses self respect, or what?

Or do you mean "debasing" in terms of the effect upon the people who watch it?

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse. It just seems like a very vague word carrying a lot of moral assumptions.

I suppose I think it's debasing to the actress's own state of mind. I know nobody has to work in porn to make ends meet, but I expect the budding starlets go into it with different expectations to the actual outcome.

[Audley Strange]

So do you mean "debasing" in terms of its effect on the actress's own state of mind? And what does that then mean - that she loses self respect, or what?

Or do you mean "debasing" in terms of the effect upon the people who watch it?

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse. It just seems like a very vague word carrying a lot of moral assumptions.

I suppose I think it's debasing to the actress's own state of mind. I know nobody has to work in porn to make ends meet, but I expect the budding starlets go into it with different expectations to the actual outcome.

The same could be said about the X-Factor.

[Pappa]

So do you mean "debasing" in terms of its effect on the actress's own state of mind? And what does that then mean - that she loses self respect, or what?

Or do you mean "debasing" in terms of the effect upon the people who watch it?

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse. It just seems like a very vague word carrying a lot of moral assumptions.

I suppose I think it's debasing to the actress's own state of mind. I know nobody has to work in porn to make ends meet, but I expect the budding starlets go into it with different expectations to the actual outcome.

The same could be said about the X-Factor.

Having read the preceding posts about how much money they make, I can't really see it as being exploitative now.

[Daedalus]

So do you mean "debasing" in terms of its effect on the actress's own state of mind? And what does that then mean - that she loses self respect, or what?

Or do you mean "debasing" in terms of the effect upon the people who watch it?

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse. It just seems like a very vague word carrying a lot of moral assumptions.

I suppose I think it's debasing to the actress's own state of mind. I know nobody has to work in porn to make ends meet, but I expect the budding starlets go into it with different expectations to the actual outcome.

The same could be said about the X-Factor.

Having read the preceding posts about how much money they make, I can't really see it as being exploitative now.

Yeah, we can talk reasonably about the downsides of the industry without framing the participants as victims being abused.

[Robert_S]

So do you mean "debasing" in terms of its effect on the actress's own state of mind? And what does that then mean - that she loses self respect, or what?

Or do you mean "debasing" in terms of the effect upon the people who watch it?

Sorry I don't mean to be obtuse. It just seems like a very vague word carrying a lot of moral assumptions.

I suppose I think it's debasing to the actress's own state of mind. I know nobody has to work in porn to make ends meet, but I expect the budding starlets go into it with different expectations to the actual outcome.

The same could be said about the X-Factor.

Having read the preceding posts about how much money they make, I can't really see it as being exploitative now.

Yeah, we can talk reasonably about the downsides of the industry without framing the participants as victims being abused.

Or rather as assuming they must be just because they happen to be in that line of work.

I've encountered a few that, when looking at the woman's face...

[Daedalus]

Or rather as assuming they must be just because they happen to be in that line of work.

I've encountered a few that, when looking at the woman's face...

Yeah, I don't buy the "happy hooker" theory, but being miserable in your job =! abuse either.

[macdoc]

I would like to be convinced that I am wrong quite frankly.

Too many caveats in the topic title.

Erotic images undertaken willingly by girls with the physical and personality attributes to get paid for their nude images and suggestive poses I consider a very valid means of earning income and perhaps less physically damaging than professional sports for instance.

At the other end....coerced degradation by the human trade types is horrific.

I enjoy the former and always on the look out for a girl who at leasts seems to be enjoying her modelling for my pleasure and I do hope they are paid reasonably.

I don't have an issue with unforced prostitution/sex work either and find society hypocritical about.
Working out fantasies ala Shades of Grey for clients male or female or in tandem is simply a talent in my view. Some may even be violent and degrading as that's the turn on but if it's consenting - it's their business.

Misogenism is the problem of the buyer and has nastier social effects than porn viewing.
I don't think sex work, erotica, porn is exploitive any more than any other way of earning income.
Men and women are attracted and turned on my attractive bodies and that's entertainment and human nature - the advertisers wallow in it.

Sexualizing pre-pubescent kids ala Pretty Baby and the Tots and Tiara's crowd is a bit dire but again it depends on whose idea it is.
If the girl likes to dress up....let her.
Pretty Baby mom tho may well have exploited her pretty daughter for her own gain.....not sure what Brooke's actual attitude is toward the experience and mom as in my view that's all that counts.

This one caused a lot of controversy....10 years old




http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... areer.html

But big money - only suggested sexuality - nothing explicit.
Exploitive.....girl will have to say later I would guess.

A pretty girl who dresses to be attractive in a sexual manner can't at the same time be dismayed by the attention she gets without being a hypocrite...aka cock tease. Flirting is fun on both sides and can end in regrettable outcomes and pregnancies but we're not going to keep kids from fooling around as soon as they are interested.
Some girls take it the next logical step to earn income either from posing, escort, sex work or harder core films etc.....good on them as long as it's safe.

Being driven to the street and pimps etc or lack of decent income earning opportunities....that's exploitative in a manner I find very sad.
Dont know if that answers OP question. Id good erotica socially beneficial? I think so and Fifty Shades put even some of the darker erotic arts into the public spot light.
I think that's just fine....as long as it's consensual.

I enjoy this site....
http://www.gracefulnudes.com
This girl in particular is pretty much an archetype for attractive girl for me and that smile seems genuine



http://www.gracefulnudes.com/main/models/Mona-21

But then she had a falling out with her photographer and stopped modelling but she was popular and still is. How they get residuals etc I have no idea.
Towards the end of her career she clearly was revelling in her beauty - she started as a rather glowering teen and blossomed. Was interesting to see.
Her images are erotic and not porn in my world.

[Robert_S]

There is a lot of room for debasement in the sex industry. Especially with drugs. I imagine that the social stigma, the personal distaste for the work and the loose schedule structure that that many parts of the industry allows could make it very easy for someone to go overboard. Add to the mix pimps, clients, producers and other middle men/women who would find addicted people more persuadable to go that next step further...

I worry a little because I remember how quickly my alcoholism progressed when I had access to easy money, a very loose schedule and a work atmosphere where being a little tipsy was no issue.

[macdoc]

When an industry is forced into the criminal sphere then the opportunity for abuse and exploitation skyrockets.
Hard to draw general conclusions without looking at each situation both from the girl's situation and how the producer/photog/videographer handles his models.

Prostitution is different category and a different decision from a health standpoint both physical and mental.

These apparently are girls working in the nude modelling industry and perhaps more and they are having the same sort of conversation. Worth a read.

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=895702