Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[PsychoSerenity]

The question is, at what point does "obligation" become "slavery"?

I don't think there is any definite point. More of a gradient with ever shifting grey areas depending on the circumstances.

[Hermit]

The question is, at what point does "obligation" become "slavery"?

Actually, not quite. The question, per opening post, is a bit more specific: Is conscription state sponsored slavery? Of course we'll want to range more widely in this discussion, but don't you think the opening post is a good place to start the discussion from?

[Rum]

Here's a definition of slavery from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slavery

1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune
2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work
3. the condition of being subject to some influence or habit
4. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) work done in harsh conditions for low pay


I can't really differentiate the above definition from the relationship between a conscripted soldier and the state, though perhaps in my 'liberal' societies the 'absolute power' bit is moderated a bit.

[Hermit]

Here's a definition of slavery from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slavery

1. (Law) the state or condition of being a slave; a civil relationship whereby one person has absolute power over another and controls his life, liberty, and fortune
2. the subjection of a person to another person, esp in being forced into work
3. the condition of being subject to some influence or habit
4. (Business / Industrial Relations & HR Terms) work done in harsh conditions for low pay


I can't really differentiate the above definition from the relationship between a conscripted soldier and the state, though perhaps in my 'liberal' societies the 'absolute power' bit is moderated a bit.

The biggest difference between a conscripted soldier and a slave is that the latter is typically a result of conquest, while the former is usually a consequence of being part of the social compact the conscript finds himself in. Additionally, slaves are bought and sold. Conscripts are, err, conscripted and if they survive a particular task at hand, which most of them do, released at the end of that task.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

Edit - Daft post. Please disregard.

[Clinton Huxley]

Conscription? You ain't a slave but you ain't a free man either. Semi-slavery.

[Tyrannical]

From "The Law of Nations", book 3 chapter 2

http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/vattel/vatt-302.htm

§ 8. Obligation of the citizens or subjects.
Every citizen is bound to serve and defend the state as far as he is capable. Society cannot otherwise be maintained; and this concurrence for the common defense is one of the principal objects of every political association. Every man capable of carrying arms should take them up at the first order of him who has the power of making war.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

My only direct experience is with the USN, but I've interacted with several other nation's military personnel. None of them could be considered slaves except in the most absurdly loose sense of the word. You might as well call spouses slaves in that case. (Not I did NOT say "wives".)

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

The Germans (they became only "The Nazis" after WWII) pre-war didn't do very much different from what the British (and other Empires) did in Europe and / or around the world. Timescale a bit compressed mind! Even during the war did not really do anything different from the Allies.

Obviously the Final Solution thing was bad post war PR - but one of the reasons it was called the FINAL solution was that it wasn't plan A, nor was it even the preffered solution - and that was as late as 1940 / 41, from Himmler himself. Pre-war cutting the Jews out of German society? might not be polite, but made a lot of sense - for the Germans......but certainly (despite some violence / killings) not out of the ballpark on either scale or methods used.

We went to war because "they" wanted what "we" had (and we worried that they might take it - as we did)....the irony being that everyone lost the war - apart from the US (and the Soviets)....if the French and the British Empires had agreed to share / let the Germans rise (heading east!) by now they would probably be speaking German........in Moscow. and that nice Mr Hitler would be opening the Olympics. and the Middle East would be a lot quieter.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Jesus, where did you get that the term "Nazi" came into use AFTER WWII, please? I gotta see this.

[Azathoth]

And by mindless obedience I mean that if I'm drafted, and my superior officer tells me to shoot. I have to shoot. How is that anything like a regular job?

This is not the case, as has been pointed out already. If the order is illegal, you'd have not only the right, but the duty to reject it.

Illegal orders fair enough. What about fucking stupid ones that will get you dead?

[Tyrannical]

The Germans (they became only "The Nazis" after WWII) pre-war didn't do very much different from what the British (and other Empires) did in Europe and / or around the world. Timescale a bit compressed mind! Even during the war did not really do anything different from the Allies.

Obviously the Final Solution thing was bad post war PR - but one of the reasons it was called the FINAL solution was that it wasn't plan A, nor was it even the preffered solution - and that was as late as 1940 / 41, from Himmler himself. Pre-war cutting the Jews out of German society? might not be polite, but made a lot of sense - for the Germans......but certainly (despite some violence / killings) not out of the ballpark on either scale or methods used.

We went to war because "they" wanted what "we" had (and we worried that they might take it - as we did)....the irony being that everyone lost the war - apart from the US (and the Soviets)....if the French and the British Empires had agreed to share / let the Germans rise (heading east!) by now they would probably be speaking German........in Moscow. and that nice Mr Hitler would be opening the Olympics. and the Middle East would be a lot quieter.

All the Jews "left alive" as skeletons at the end days of WWII were the result of allied disruptions of German supply lines, primarily by bombing the rail lines. When you have large detention camps and no means of resupply, what do you think would happen?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And by mindless obedience I mean that if I'm drafted, and my superior officer tells me to shoot. I have to shoot. How is that anything like a regular job?

This is not the case, as has been pointed out already. If the order is illegal, you'd have not only the right, but the duty to reject it.

Illegal orders fair enough. What about fucking stupid ones that will get you dead?

"Go out and get yourself killed for no good fucking reason" is an unlawful order.

[Jesus_of_Nazareth]

Jesus, where did you get that the term "Nazi" came into use AFTER WWII, please? I gotta see this.

I said "The Nazis". Before and during the war we were fighting the Germans / Jerry / the Hun / Krauts / Fritz etc. Only after the war did we need to be freinds with the Germans and therefore had to demonize / pin the blame on someone else. If it had just been "The Nazis" fighting us the war would have been over inside a week......there really were not that many of them. Lots of supporters - not a lot of actual Nazis.

My source is Noel Coward

Don't let's be beastly to the Germans
When our victory is ultimately won,
It was just those nasty Nazis who persuaded them to fight
And their Beethoven and Bach are really far worse than their bite
Let's be meek to them
And turn the other cheek to them
And try to bring out their latent sense of fun.
Let's give them full air parity
And treat the rats with charity,
But don't let's be beastly to the Hun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_Let' ... he_Germans

Clearly he could tell the difference between a Nazi and a German and was having none of that "it was the Nazis who did it" nonsense. From memory, it was written early in the War (1940 /41?).

The song was satirical - and therefore easily misunderstood by the moron classes, and was therefore banned by the BBC - even though Churchill loved it.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The satirical part to me was that he separated Nazis from Germans. The demographics of the SS officer corps was an almost perfect match for the general population. In other words, the typical SS officer was a typical German.

Other than that, your quibble is dismissed.