Free to Be Me Childrearing

[Coito ergo sum]

There is the inherent difference that everyone generally accepts between heterosexuals and homosexuals. They're "born that way." Most men are heterosexual and attracted to women. Most women are heterosexual and attracted to men. There is one "inherent" difference. Unless, of course, you're going to dispute that and say that men and women are not born that way...

If we can agree on that one inherent difference, then we can move on to whether any other differences are inherent, or not.

I don't think it's anywhere near as black and white as you suggest. Culture has a significant effect on sexual orientation. People aren't simply gay or straight. Our Western culture seems to be insistent in imposing those two categories though. Not all cultures (past and present) had/have the same need for that strict dichotomy.

So, people aren't born that way? It seems to me that the suggestion that people are born gay has been used to oppose efforts of folks to change people from gay to straight.

[Pappa]

There is the inherent difference that everyone generally accepts between heterosexuals and homosexuals. They're "born that way." Most men are heterosexual and attracted to women. Most women are heterosexual and attracted to men. There is one "inherent" difference. Unless, of course, you're going to dispute that and say that men and women are not born that way...

If we can agree on that one inherent difference, then we can move on to whether any other differences are inherent, or not.

I don't think it's anywhere near as black and white as you suggest. Culture has a significant effect on sexual orientation. People aren't simply gay or straight. Our Western culture seems to be insistent in imposing those two categories though. Not all cultures (past and present) had/have the same need for that strict dichotomy.

So, people aren't born that way? It seems to me that the suggestion that people are born gay has been used to oppose efforts of folks to change people from gay to straight.

No, that's not what I said. It's just not as black and white as "born gay" or "born straight". There are lots of factors which affect sexuality, genetics only one of them.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, then if genetics is a factor, then to that extent the difference is "inherent." That's an inherent difference.

[JimC]

So, then if genetics is a factor, then to that extent the difference is "inherent." That's an inherent difference.

Yes, but it may manifest as a probabilistic tendency, which could be tipped one way or the other by aspets of enculturation.

[Coito ergo sum]

So, then if genetics is a factor, then to that extent the difference is "inherent." That's an inherent difference.

Yes, but it may manifest as a probabilistic tendency, which could be tipped one way or the other by aspets of enculturation.

Sure, but we have nevertheless identified an inherent difference between boys and girls. Boys inherently tend to like girls, and some small percentage of homosexual boys like other boys. Girls inherently tend to like boys, and some small percentage of homosexual girls like other girls. And, some small percentage of both are bisexual.

There. We have one inherent difference.

Might there be others?

[CP]

Might there be others?

Possibly, but there's no reason to assume others without evidence, and we don't have anything backing up the differences commonly assumed in our culture.

[laklak]

Childrearing? I should think not, I'm no bloody Papist priest.

[Gallstones]

I had six siblings. One stillborn, four brothers one sister. My sister died 13 years ago. We were close and estranged off and on. I was close to the brother who followed me in birth order--we are less than 13 months apart. I noticed very early that he got privileges that I didn't get and that I had duties he didn't have. I found that highly chafing.

Lots of cousins. The families were very close and the cousins were very much like siblings too.

Out of curiosity - what "privileges" are you referring to?

As a male, I remain baffled by this assertion.

The fun stuff like the better toys, motorbikes, allowed to get dirty and wear practical clothes like jeans, sitting in the living room with the other guys on holidays while I had to wash dishes. Me being expected to provide child care for my siblings and do domestic chores while my brothers were exempt from all that. Buying me dolls when I stated I didn't want them, putting curlers in my hair when I said I didn't want that. Putting me in dresses and expecting me to stay clean when I said I didn't want that. There being conversation going on and my input being ignored.

[Ronja]

Gallstones, I can relate to that. Even though I don't have brothers, I grew up in close contact with my first cousins (all 15 of them, both from my mom's and my dad's side), and the different expectations were very apparent especially during the long summer months at the family summer place. I especially hated the "sit still, be quiet and clean" regimen reserved for girls. I blame a part of my health problems on being systematically discouraged (and even punished) for being physically active - the habit of immobility, forced on me daily for my first 20+ years, is still a tough one to fight, more than 20 years later.

I both resented and found illogical/irrational that the boys were expected to learn how to handle e.g. a chain saw, and the girls were absolutely forbidden from even coming close anything "dangerous" like that (even learning how to use an ax and the heavier spades was discouraged!). It was also demeaning to be limited to cleaning the caught fish and the nets, while the boys were taught also the sportier and more fun lure casting - apparently hooks were too dangerous for girls to be around, too.

I could lengthen the list ad nauseam, but I'm sure you get the picture already...

[Hermit]

Some behavior is conditioned, of course. But, there must be some differences that are innate.

You seem to be conflating genetic disposition with social behaviour. The parents of the child in question seem intent on trying to minimise social impositions on the latter in so far as those impositions are made on gender-based based expectations/limitations. Their logic seems to be that if others don't know if their child male or female, they won't know what impositions to apply and that their child is therefore free from them. They don't seem to try and suppress their child's gender - just the social pressures for the child to behave according to conventionally expected standards that are popularly considered appropriate for either a male or a female infant.

[CP]

Gallstones, I can relate to that. Even though I don't have brothers, I grew up in close contact with my first cousins (all 15 of them, both from my mom's and my dad's side), and the different expectations were very apparent especially during the long summer months at the family summer place. I especially hated the "sit still, be quiet and clean" regimen reserved for girls. I blame a part of my health problems on being systematically discouraged (and even punished) for being physically active - the habit of immobility, forced on me daily for my first 20+ years, is still a tough one to fight, more than 20 years later.

I both resented and found illogical/irrational that the boys were expected to learn how to handle e.g. a chain saw, and the girls were absolutely forbidden from even coming close anything "dangerous" like that (even learning how to use an ax and the heavier spades was discouraged!). It was also demeaning to be limited to cleaning the caught fish and the nets, while the boys were taught also the sportier and more fun lure casting - apparently hooks were too dangerous for girls to be around, too.

I could lengthen the list ad nauseam, but I'm sure you get the picture already...

I know what you guys mean. I'm *still* the one expected to look after my baby cousins at family gatherings (despite being the least maternal person in the family), berated endlessly if I directly challenge something said by a male, and snapped at for unladylike behaviour or refusing to wear skirts/makeup to formal events. I'm 22 years old.

UInlike you, though, Ronya, I have few such complaints from my earlier years on the farm. My stepfather didn't believe there was any difference between boys and girls until they were ready to marry, so I got to build cubbyhouses and drag out sheep for the shearers, although I was still expected to do the cooking, cleaning and childcare while the males watched TV. It was a shock to move to a more gender-enforced family and have all these sudden impositions I'd never really felt before.

[Coito ergo sum]

I had six siblings. One stillborn, four brothers one sister. My sister died 13 years ago. We were close and estranged off and on. I was close to the brother who followed me in birth order--we are less than 13 months apart. I noticed very early that he got privileges that I didn't get and that I had duties he didn't have. I found that highly chafing.

Lots of cousins. The families were very close and the cousins were very much like siblings too.

Out of curiosity - what "privileges" are you referring to?

As a male, I remain baffled by this assertion.

The fun stuff like the better toys, motorbikes, allowed to get dirty and wear practical clothes like jeans, sitting in the living room with the other guys on holidays while I had to wash dishes. Me being expected to provide child care for my siblings and do domestic chores while my brothers were exempt from all that. Buying me dolls when I stated I didn't want them, putting curlers in my hair when I said I didn't want that. Putting me in dresses and expecting me to stay clean when I said I didn't want that. There being conversation going on and my input being ignored.

Do women want to ride the motorbikes and get dirty? In my experience, they don't.

As far as clothes is concerned, women have far more options than men. Just look at a woman's clothes store. Thousands of different kinds of clothes over which women ponder for hours on end, picking out just which "outfit" makes them feel right. The malls are designed for women, and a vastly disproportionately small number of stores are built for men, and when a man's clothing store opens up, it is very quickly subsumed by women's clothing sections.

Women wear plenty of jeans, and in fact have far more KINDS of jeans than men have. You can wear Levis, and you can wear designer jeans, flair jeans, skinny jeans...you name it. Women wear every conceivable jeans imaginable - you have the freedom to wear regular jeans, and hip-huggers and show plumbers crack without apology.

And, regarding child care and chores - were your brothers exempt from all work altogether? Or, did they do other things. I can't speak for your specific experience, but in my experience, women tend to recognize their own chores and discount those done by males.

I think the idea of input being ignored is a common feeling of all children, and not just women.

On the issue of the women being in the kitchen - that's one that's kind of interesting. I can see it as being a cultural expectation traditionally speaking, but maybe we ought to lump that in with 'picking up the tab' on dates. In the dating thread, a common refrain regarding the fact that men pay for dates like 90% of the time was that "hey - you don't HAVE to! If you don't want to, don't do it!" And, the "cultural" roles were basically ignored. It's just the way it is, and so what, people can organize their relationships as they see fit. So, why not the same standard relative to cooking on the holidays. There is certainly no legal compulsion for women to do the kitchen work on Thanksgiving. So, if they choose to do it, like men paying on dates, then that's up to them?

And, these may be sexual "roles" issues, but we can also point to "female privilege" in our society - the privilege to "choose" to be a stay at home mother or work, and the freedom from criticism for her "choices." Right? What about men? A man who stays home and takes care of the kids with a working wife is culturally castigated and is less of a man because he's not bringing home the bacon. Men, generally, have no real choice BUT to work, and if the wife wishes to "choose" to stay home with the kids, then he should "support" that choice, and if she "chooses" to work then he should support "that" choice. If the husband, however, "chooses" to stay home from work with the family, then the wife should only "support" that choice if she has made the choice to work. The man's choices are secondary, that is.

Men are put in male roles as kids just as much as women are put in female roles. A guy who doesn't want to play sports is often forced to do so - a guy who may want to wear the curlers or braid his hair is often discouraged. So, the idea that you were dressed as a girl, or had hair curled isn't "male privilege" it's the same as the roles that males are expected to fill.

[Gallstones]

I had six siblings. One stillborn, four brothers one sister. My sister died 13 years ago. We were close and estranged off and on. I was close to the brother who followed me in birth order--we are less than 13 months apart. I noticed very early that he got privileges that I didn't get and that I had duties he didn't have. I found that highly chafing.

Lots of cousins. The families were very close and the cousins were very much like siblings too.

Out of curiosity - what "privileges" are you referring to?

As a male, I remain baffled by this assertion.

The fun stuff like the better toys, motorbikes, allowed to get dirty and wear practical clothes like jeans, sitting in the living room with the other guys on holidays while I had to wash dishes. Me being expected to provide child care for my siblings and do domestic chores while my brothers were exempt from all that. Buying me dolls when I stated I didn't want them, putting curlers in my hair when I said I didn't want that. Putting me in dresses and expecting me to stay clean when I said I didn't want that. There being conversation going on and my input being ignored.

Do women want to ride the motorbikes and get dirty? In my experience, they don't.

As far as clothes is concerned, women have far more options than men. Just look at a woman's clothes store. Thousands of different kinds of clothes over which women ponder for hours on end, picking out just which "outfit" makes them feel right. The malls are designed for women, and a vastly disproportionately small number of stores are built for men, and when a man's clothing store opens up, it is very quickly subsumed by women's clothing sections.

Women wear plenty of jeans, and in fact have far more KINDS of jeans than men have. You can wear Levis, and you can wear designer jeans, flair jeans, skinny jeans...you name it. Women wear every conceivable jeans imaginable - you have the freedom to wear regular jeans, and hip-huggers and show plumbers crack without apology.

And, regarding child care and chores - were your brothers exempt from all work altogether? Or, did they do other things. I can't speak for your specific experience, but in my experience, women tend to recognize their own chores and discount those done by males.

I think the idea of input being ignored is a common feeling of all children, and not just women.

On the issue of the women being in the kitchen - that's one that's kind of interesting. I can see it as being a cultural expectation traditionally speaking, but maybe we ought to lump that in with 'picking up the tab' on dates. In the dating thread, a common refrain regarding the fact that men pay for dates like 90% of the time was that "hey - you don't HAVE to! If you don't want to, don't do it!" And, the "cultural" roles were basically ignored. It's just the way it is, and so what, people can organize their relationships as they see fit. So, why not the same standard relative to cooking on the holidays. There is certainly no legal compulsion for women to do the kitchen work on Thanksgiving. So, if they choose to do it, like men paying on dates, then that's up to them?

And, these may be sexual "roles" issues, but we can also point to "female privilege" in our society - the privilege to "choose" to be a stay at home mother or work, and the freedom from criticism for her "choices." Right? What about men? A man who stays home and takes care of the kids with a working wife is culturally castigated and is less of a man because he's not bringing home the bacon. Men, generally, have no real choice BUT to work, and if the wife wishes to "choose" to stay home with the kids, then he should "support" that choice, and if she "chooses" to work then he should support "that" choice. If the husband, however, "chooses" to stay home from work with the family, then the wife should only "support" that choice if she has made the choice to work. The man's choices are secondary, that is.

Men are put in male roles as kids just as much as women are put in female roles. A guy who doesn't want to play sports is often forced to do so - a guy who may want to wear the curlers or braid his hair is often discouraged. So, the idea that you were dressed as a girl, or had hair curled isn't "male privilege" it's the same as the roles that males are expected to fill.

Women? You mean like a generalized block or category of people?
My input being ignored happened when I was an adult.

The tab. For the past several visits I made to my local bar, it is I who bought drinks for the person I have been interested in. He bought none for me.

I didn't choose to wash dishes, or be the surrogate mother to my siblings or do the domestic chores or be the surrogate wife to the step father. These things were imposed on me because I was a girl. Same with curlers and dresses.

I didn't choose to stay home with my son either. I had to work. My mother had to work. No choice there.

In the Army, I was one of five women in a company of 150. They didn't want us, the men were not happy for us to be there.

[Coito ergo sum]

Women? You mean like a generalized block or category of people?

Why not? That's how you used the term.

My input being ignored happened when I was an adult.

You think that's because men are "privileged?" You don't think men are ignored? Not being ignored tends to depend on how good looking a person, male or female, is.

The tab. For the past several visits I made to my local bar, it is I who bought drinks for the person I have been interested in. He bought none for me.

Statistically, men pay for dates in the vast majority of instances, anecdotes aside.

I didn't choose to wash dishes, or be the surrogate mother to my siblings or do the domestic chores or be the surrogate wife to the step father. These things were imposed on me because I was a girl. Same with curlers and dresses.

In the same manner, men are forced into their roles, and we have to do the lifting, fixing, garbage hauling, yard work and breadwinning, traditionally speaking.

I didn't choose to stay home with my son either. I had to work. My mother had to work. No choice there.

Men have never had that choice, statistically speaking.

In the Army, I was one of five women in a company of 150. They didn't want us, the men were not happy for us to be there.

Sorry they weren't happy. Maybe it was because women can't generally lift as much, run as fast, etc....

[Hermit]

Do women want to ride the motorbikes and get dirty? In my experience, they don't.

I made a similar observation, only it concerned negroes in Cape Town. None of them wanted to live in comfortable housing, and they preferred to drink yucky coffee out of tin mugs.