"Unborn Child"

[Sælir]

... Why would a premmature child be considered concious while an unborn child not be at equal weeks of development?..

Actually I've always had a problem with that one myself as it happens. Personally I feel that at the moment of it's birth the premature 'baby' (as they tend to be called) should not be regarded as having separate status from a still developing foetus in the womb of the same level of development. Except as regards to the fact that it is no longer biologically dependant on it's mother, therefore cancelling out that particular argument for the mother to be entitled to decide it's fate (though other arguments still apply).
However there may be some difference insofar as if the premature 'baby's' senses are sufficiently developed at birth, and it's brain sufficiently developed to learn how to process the information from the senses (yes, your brain does have to 'learn' over time how to see/hear e.t.c) then it may possibly gain a headstart over a foetus still in the womb, with regards perceiving, and taking in information from, the world around it. A process that I would guess is likely necessary to the development of consciousness.

In most hospitals premature babies are not considered having more conciousness than a foetus. Their age is counted as it was still a foetus until the baby would have been full term and parents are told to calculate their age from term date when thinking about mental development till the baby is around 2 years old!

I was only speculating with regards premature babies maybe under certain circumstances having a 'head-start'. Although I would nonetheless like to know who's doing the 'considering' here?

This is the opinion of doctors and nurses in neo natal units. They obviously don´t consider this a head start in terms of conciousness

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...This is the opinion of doctors and nurses in neo natal units. They obviously don´t consider this a head start in terms of conciousness

Ah, I suspected as much.

I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong, but I think it's the job of 'PhD' type 'doctors', rather then the 'MD' type to have the final say on this one.

[Sælir]

...This is the opinion of doctors and nurses in neo natal units. They obviously don´t consider this a head start in terms of conciousness

Ah, I suspected as much.

I'm not saying they're necessarily wrong, but I think it's the job of 'PhD' type 'doctors', rather then the 'MD' type to have the final say on this one.

True, this would have to be researched properly by academics to see if this is in reality the case but I am just going to believe doctors who have based this opinions on their experience working with premature babies for years rather then trying to make my own opionion of this

[mistermack]

So again, why refuse to use the term 'unborn child'? Why refuse to acknowledge that's what you're killing?

It's down to words, and their meaning then.
An egg that had just made it's first cell division wouldn't be an "unborn child" in most peoples' eyes.
But an eight month fetus might be. At what point does it become an "unborn child"?
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[Don't Panic]

But an eight month fetus might be. At what point does it become an "unborn child"?
.

When labour starts, then it's attempting to be born, so it is unborn.

Before that it's a lounging foetus, and a lethargic embryo before that.

[Tero]

We need to play with some plastic fetus models to get familiar with this. Somebody shop for some.

[mistermack]

But an eight month fetus might be. At what point does it become an "unborn child"?
.

When labour starts, then it's attempting to be born, so it is unborn.

Before that it's a lounging foetus, and a lethargic embryo before that.

So people were wrong to use the term "with child" instead of pregnant then.
I would say "with child" when it's safe to ask "when is it due?" without the risk of offending a fat lass.
.

[Santa_Claus]

Why are people so adverse to the term? In particular, those that support abortion seem incredibly hesitant to acknowledge that you are, in fact, killing a human.

Is anyone? I'm not.

keep it. kill it. whatever. if it's not yours then WTF has it got to do with you / your choices???

[Tigger]

What always amuses me is the number of males who have strident opinions either one way or the other about this, when it's the female who's the one carrying the sprog.

[hadespussercats]

Why are people so adverse to the term? In particular, those that support abortion seem incredibly hesitant to acknowledge that you are, in fact, killing a human.

Well, it's true that you are killing something made up of human cells, with the potential to become a fully functioning human.

I support abortion, even late in pregnancy, if there are serious health defects discovered in the unborn child or serious health risks to the mother in giving birth. I don't object to the term "unborn child", because in my view the human-ness of the fetus is beside the point. One of the best analogies I've ever heard to explain this view is this:
Picture that, sometime during the night while you slept, without your expressed consent (and I do mean expressed, in the literal sense of the term-- not implied), a violinist had been attached to your circulatory system. You are informed that, to detach yourself from the violinist would surely mean his death. Should you then be required to go through the rest of your days attached to the violinist? In America, at least, our laws revolve around the rights of individuals, not our duties to those other individuals. For instance, an Olympic swimmer is doing no wrong if he stands on the side of a pond and watches someone drown. Why, then, would you be compelled to keep this fully functioning, fully sentient, and talented violinist alive, if doing so would entail a life of attachment and dependency that might keep you from pursuing your own life to the fullest?

So go ahead and use the term unborn child-- even though, Nature being what she is, there's always a chance that fetus would never become a child, even in the absence of abortion. The more important question is: Why is it a woman's duty to foster with her own body, at possible severe detriment to her health, sanity, and financial well-being, another human life?

[Horwood Beer-Master]

...So people were wrong to use the term "with child" instead of pregnant then...

Neither right nor wrong. People use all sorts of gushing hippy-dippy expressions for all kinds of things - that's no problem in and of itself in ordinary day-to-day life.

It only makes itself a problem when we start injecting (or allowing others to inject) distortingly emotionally-laden language into ethical debates.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

What always amuses me is the number of males who have strident opinions either one way or the other about this, when it's the female who's the one carrying the sprog.

I don't think females are in any kind of privileged position with regards telling other females what they should do either. So I'm not entirely sure I take your point here...

[Pappa]

What always amuses me is the number of males who have strident opinions either one way or the other about this, when it's the female who's the one carrying the sprog.

This raises some interesting points though, that Cunt once brought up....

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... f=11&t=322

[mistermack]

...So people were wrong to use the term "with child" instead of pregnant then...

Neither right nor wrong. People use all sorts of gushing hippy-dippy expressions for all kinds of things - that's no problem in and of itself in ordinary day-to-day life.

It only makes itself a problem when we start injecting (or allowing others to inject) distortingly emotionally-laden language into ethical debates.

I think "with child" dates back long before the hippy era, even long before the word "pregnant" was thought of.
As this thread is about what words to use, I would say it's relevant.
.

[Feck]

Call it a 'little baby' (surely an even more emotionally charged term ) it's still not my place to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies I am not equipped or qualified to comment .