The value of the concept of "virginity"

[Achtland]

that is way i hate those catholic bastards always at it

sorry mask slipped there may apple-ogies to them

[hadespussercats]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Pretty Baby" includes a scene where her virginity is auctioned off. It helped defray the expense of feeding her for twelve years.

That prostitute diary I mentioned a while back has similar cases, some forty of them over the years. Girls and boys.

[hadespussercats]

"Pretty Baby" includes a scene where her virginity is auctioned off. It helped defray the expense of feeding her for twelve years.

That prostitute diary I mentioned a while back has similar cases, some forty of them over the years. Girls and boys.

Yeah-- it's in Memoirs of a Geisha too.

[charlou]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

I haven't watched that movie since it was aired among the golden oldie midday movies on local television when I was a child, and I don't remember anything at all about it. Your descriptions have piqued my interest in watching it ...

[Bella Fortuna]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

Yes, I remember watching it as a young person and not thinking anything of it because I was enjoying the songs, and costumes, etc... watching it as an adult gave me a distinct case of the creeps. Part of me wondered how such a film could have even been made, especially in the 1950s.

Oh, and I think Seraph is absolutely right.

[Seth]

The hymen only very rarely completely covers the entire entrance to the vagina. In fact, surgery is often called for in this case, as it causes problems with menstruation.

In many women, the hymen is merely a ring of inflexible tissue that narrows the vaginal entrance. Inserting a tampon, or a finger, is unlikely to break the hymen as they are quite able to pass through the narrow opening without stretching it. A penis, by comparison, tends to be somewhat thicker and is repeatedly and forcefully inserted, thus stretching the opening and breaking the hymen.

Many hymens break naturally - horse riding and gymnastics are common causes - long before penetrative sex and in some cases, pre-puberty.

I often wonder what the evolutionary purpose of the hymen is.

In other cases (like one of my first girlfriends in high school) the hymen is "imperferate," meaning any opening is very small and the hymen is much thicker than usual, making any attempt at penetration extremely painful for the girl. In her case, no penetration was possible, and she was 30 before she got surgery to correct the problem...but she was bisexual so she had plenty of clitoral orgasms to make up for the lack of cock. Was a bit frustrating for met though, but she tried to accommodate me as best she could using other methods.

[Seth]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

Yes, I remember watching it as a young person and not thinking anything of it because I was enjoying the songs, and costumes, etc... watching it as an adult gave me a distinct case of the creeps. Part of me wondered how such a film could have even been made, especially in the 1950s.

Oh, and I think Seraph is absolutely right.

Me too. I didn't get the creepy-factor until I actually sat and watched it on my HDTV a couple of years ago. Then the light bulb went on. Of course, Leslie Caron was hardly Brook Shields in either "Pretty Baby" or "Blue Lagoon," and she was pretty obviously an adult woman, so I suppose the censors at the studios could let it pass.

[hadespussercats]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

Yes, I remember watching it as a young person and not thinking anything of it because I was enjoying the songs, and costumes, etc... watching it as an adult gave me a distinct case of the creeps. Part of me wondered how such a film could have even been made, especially in the 1950s.

Oh, and I think Seraph is absolutely right.

Me too. I didn't get the creepy-factor until I actually sat and watched it on my HDTV a couple of years ago. Then the light bulb went on. Of course, Leslie Caron was hardly Brook Shields in either "Pretty Baby" or "Blue Lagoon," and she was pretty obviously an adult woman, so I suppose the censors at the studios could let it pass.

Ever see This Film is Not Yet Rated? It's really interesting to me, the twists and turns of how certain things become acceptable and others not, censorship-wise.

Back to Gigi-- there's a telling scene, when Jardin tells Gigi he loves her. She bursts into inconsolable tears: "You love me? But how could you do this to me if you loved me?" She's fine with being sold into elegant prostitution when she thinks they're just friends and it's a business transaction-- but thinking he could be in love with her and still treat her with so little personal regard, so much like a commodity, makes her cry.

[Hermit]

The most common way of viewing the concept of virginity is thoroughly reprehensible to me. It is typified by Maurice Chevalier in a movie called Gigi. He likens the virginity of a girl (of course it is a girl!) to an unused match. Then he strikes the match, blows it out (no pun intended. really.) and says words to the effect that just like a match that has been used, the value of a young woman (again, no mention of what happens to a young man under those circumstances) that has had sex is irretrievably and utterly lost. The movie was made in 1958, but this attitude continues to this day in many places and social strata.

Rather than regarding the change of "status" as a loss, I prefer to think of it (assuming informed consent) as a gain - a gain in pleasure, trust and togetherness.

Mom loved Gigi. I watched it with her whenever it came on TV. And back then, I enjoyed it for the snappy Lerner and Lowe songs and the glamorous costumes. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized how creepy it all is.

Still, Gigi (Leslie Caron) literally grew up in a family of courtesans, where virginity is an actual commodity. And Maurice Chevalier and Louis Jardin (?) are both from a family where the men have mistresses/courtesans, but don't marry. So that creepiness is more than just an artifact of when the musical was written, or when it was set-- it's baked right into the story.

I've come around to really enjoying Gigi, again, because of the weird sex politics. It's interesting. Especially since M Chevalier was such a creepy fellow even outside the realm of the script (a whole 'nother thread-- or a Godwin award for this one, I guess.)

Maybe no one's being baked into pies here. But I like my sunshiny musicals when they get a little sordid.

Yes, I remember watching it as a young person and not thinking anything of it because I was enjoying the songs, and costumes, etc... watching it as an adult gave me a distinct case of the creeps. Part of me wondered how such a film could have even been made, especially in the 1950s.

The matchstick scene stuck in my mind ever since I first saw that film for the first time (in my pre-teens), because I was struck by the double standards it involved. Metaphorically speaking, it engendered a feeling of nausea and a vague feeling of resentment. Not really sure how to express it. I had not even experienced sexual urges at that time. It is the only scene I actually remember. I wasn't even aware that Gigi is a musical until I read up on it a few years ago.

[Bella Fortuna]

I hadn't remembered that scene until you mentioned it, and I feel the same way you do in recalling it now.

[Tero]

Well, it is important in the sense of demarking something that children should be, but I do see your point. What's the sense in categorising a 43 year old man as a virgin or non-virgin?

Very important. Do not employ as babysitter, even if he is an uncle.

[Gallstones]

Guinea pigs

The vagina is normally closed by a membrane (hymen) except during estrus (heat) and at parturition (birthing). It actually dissolves ("mucousy") when they go in heat and will reseal itself afterwards. Sows come 'into cycle' every 15-17 days for 24 to 48 hours.

[Gallstones]

Specualtions on the evolutionary purpose for a hymen.

...an incomplete listing of mammals with hymens: llamas, guinea pigs, bush babies, manatees, moles, toothed whales, chimpanzees, elephants, rats, ruffed lemurs, seals