What is feminism? PZ rape thread derail

[Robert_S]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

[DaveDodo007]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

[DaveDodo007]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

I'm judging feminism as feminism, A+ is a whole different kettle of fish.

[pErvinalia]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

But you said: "Try disagreeing with a feminist without either getting banned or called a misogynist, sexist or rape apologist.". A couple of the mods (or former mods) here are feminists.

[Coito ergo sum]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

But you said: "Try disagreeing with a feminist without either getting banned or called a misogynist, sexist or rape apologist.". A couple of the mods (or former mods) here are feminists.

Pretty much everyone here is a feminist under the "feminism means women are equals of men" definition.

The basic gist of it is that the people who are irked by feminism see those describing themselves as feminists, the prominent feminists, advancing ideas that are not merely "equality" ideas. I gave the example of PZ Myers and the postings from the OP where there was some hubbub made of woman's "personal story" involving her being flirted with in a social setting and having her wine glass repeatedly filled by Shermer. A "feminist" who feels it is some affront to women or a woman to have a guy flirt with them during a social event, and to have a guy hold out a bottle to pour more wine in a woman's glass, these are the folks that make folks raise an objection to "feminism."

It is the very rare individual who says "i'm not a feminist because I don't think women should be treated equally."

The fact is that feminism is or seems overrun by the Apelust brand of feminism. The noFreethoughtblog brand. The Skeptchick brand. These "feminists" are fucking lunatics, and that's why they should be steered clear of.

Yes, I think Dodo did refer to feminists generally in his posts, but in context it seemed pretty clear that he was referring to feminists who harbor or express these wacky-ass beliefs, such as the Apelusters. Perhaps I read him wrong. If I did, so be it.

[pErvinalia]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

But you said: "Try disagreeing with a feminist without either getting banned or called a misogynist, sexist or rape apologist.". A couple of the mods (or former mods) here are feminists.

Pretty much everyone here is a feminist under the "feminism means women are equals of men" definition.

Yes, and we are trying to get to the bottom of why DaveDodo hates feminists so much. His position seems irrational.

[Coito ergo sum]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

[Pappa]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

That's silly Coito. It's easy to see that Apelust =/= Feminism, and not all feminist are apelusters.

[pErvinalia]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

A+ et al are a subset (and possibly mutually exclusive in some cases) of feminism. It's possible to dismiss A+ et al and still support feminism more broadly.

[Robert_S]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

That's silly Coito. It's easy to see that Apelust =/= Feminism, and not all feminist are apelusters.

Audley Strange skewered the Skepchicks as poor examples of feminism early on IIRC.

[Coito ergo sum]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

A+ et al are a subset (and possibly mutually exclusive in some cases) of feminism. It's possible to dismiss A+ et al and still support feminism more broadly.

Which is exactly what I do. I had interpreted Dodo's writings, in context, as doing roughly the same thing. However, if I'm wrong in my interpretation, then I'm wrong. I think part of his point was that he uses the general term feminism, because when he meets someone who describes himself or herself as such it sends up a red flag that they might be the wacko variety and not just the "women are equals" variety. It's hard to tell the difference at the outset. But, I'll leave it to Dodo to state whether I'm close to the mark or not. If not, and he's saying all feminists, no matter what, even someone who just defines feminism as an equality for women thing, well, then I disagree with him.

[Coito ergo sum]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

That's silly Coito. It's easy to see that Apelust =/= Feminism, and not all feminist are apelusters.

Audley Strange skewered the Skepchicks as poor examples of feminism early on IIRC.

Sure, but that's just a matter of opinion. Those groups - -the Skepchicks, freethoughtblatherers, Apelusters, Jezebels, Greta Cristinas, Anita Sarkeesians, and so many of the prominent feminist groups and personages ARE of the Skepchick and Apelust ilk, and it is not at all apparent that they don't represent "true" feminism vs. the "false" feminism.

maybe the "women are equal" brand of loosey goosey feminism is the fake feminism. That's just a matter of opinion. The key point is not who is true and who is false, but rather to understand who one is referring to.

[hadespussercats]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

But you said: "Try disagreeing with a feminist without either getting banned or called a misogynist, sexist or rape apologist.". A couple of the mods (or former mods) here are feminists.

[Coito ergo sum]

I haven't seen XC or RobertS banning you.

I wasn't talking about Rationalia as I'm a member because of its lax moderation policy.

But you said: "Try disagreeing with a feminist without either getting banned or called a misogynist, sexist or rape apologist.". A couple of the mods (or former mods) here are feminists.

Pretty much everyone here is a feminist under the "feminism means women are equals of men" definition.

Yes, and we are trying to get to the bottom of why DaveDodo hates feminists so much. His position seems irrational.

...because, generally, if the websites and publications of prominent feminists are considered, then feminism quite often means more than just women's equality. The people who tend to say feminism should mean just that women are equals, they tend to be the ones not very active in the movement. The active feminists tend to take it much further.

[hadespussercats]

Judging feminism as a whole by the wars over who gets to be the big tadpole in the Internet atheist puddle seems likely to produce skewed results.

Yeah, but if we follow the "No True Scotsman" motif during online forum discussions then we can't ever talk about anything.

A+ et al are a subset (and possibly mutually exclusive in some cases) of feminism. It's possible to dismiss A+ et al and still support feminism more broadly.