Selfishness

[Audley Strange]

To further my thought. What also clouds the issue is that what we might think is best for us, may be detrimental to us and those who are concerned about our actual best interests may appear as rivals or enemies. One thing I have noticed in my life is that, like it or not, the thing we scrutinize with the least amount of rationality is our own "self". It is true of all of us that we do not always notice our own negative habits and behaviours and that when we do we rationalise them away, on an individual "self" and national "culture".

Some of these habits are utterly self destructive. I have no doubt that killing girls for wishing an education is an insanity, but then so it plundering a country under the guise of "liberation", so is the idea of stealing money from those who work their arse of to give to those who can't be bothered.

Yet people will defend these insanities because they let their belief in the totemic fantasies of "Allah", "democracy and the market" or "a social safety net" get in the way of a more brute, objective analysis. We need to take a broader look at ourselves and our cultures with as little political rationalisation getting in the way as possible. We need to stop seeing others as "Heretics" and "sinners" because of our own dogma, we need to start seeing them as us.

[orpheus]

Personally, it's not a simple issue. I'm very generous with material things. It usually gives me more pleasure to give something away and see that the recipient is happy than to keep the thing for myself. (Of course, that brings up Rum's point - since it gives me pleasure, is it really selfish? I think that can be resolved somewhat by not looking at it as a zero-sum game.)

But that's with material objects. With my time, I'm very selfish. I guard it pretty fiercely. But that too is complex, because with students I'm quite generous with my time. There again, though, that may be selfish, since I enjoy teaching so much. But that generosity sometimes comes at the expense of time I need for other things, and I sometimes feel quite frustrated about that.

Tricksy, this is. 

[MiM]

Personally, it's not a simple issue. I'm very generous with material things. It usually gives me more pleasure to give something away and see that the recipient is happy than to keep the thing for myself. (Of course, that brings up Rum's point - since it gives me pleasure, is it really selfish? I think that can be resolved somewhat by not looking at it as a zero-sum game.)

But that's with material objects. With my time, I'm very selfish. I guard it pretty fiercely. But that too is complex, because with students I'm quite generous with my time. There again, though, that may be selfish, since I enjoy teaching so much. But that generosity sometimes comes at the expense of time I need for other things, and I sometimes feel quite frustrated about that.

Tricksy, this is. 

Ohh did I have some rueful drunk arguments in my youth, when claiming that all human action is basically selfish. If you don't have a motivator you will not move, and the very bottom line of that motivator can always be traced back all the way to yours truly

[Beatsong]

ALL uncoerced actions are self interest even if falling on a grenade...the individual acts as they choose.

That seems like a pretty contrived way of supporting a predetermined conclusion. "Choice" does not have the same meaning as "self interest", as the terms are commonly understood.

[Beatsong]

Being concered for one's own best interests.

Is it a good or a bad thing?

Does the other guy's best interest always trump one's own, or is it the kind of thing where sacrificing ones own well being and best interests to the other guy's is morally superior, and justifibly expected for that reason alone?

Should such sacrifice be enforced if it isn't voluntary?

There is an inherent paradox here, which is one reason why libertarianism is always ultimately self-negating and meaningless.

Suppose we all agree, for the sake of argument, that being concerned for one's own best interests is "a good thing".

Suppose then that someone decides to enforce a sacrifice of your own well being on YOUR part, because it's in HIS best interests to do so.

He's acting in his own self interest, which we've agreed is "a good thing". Therefore the answer to your question must be "yes: such sacrifice should be enforced."

I don't have any kind of moral problem with ultra-simplistic self-interest philosophy. I just ask that people be honest about it. If they really want to summarise human behaviour and morality as simply as that, they need to consider honestly the effect upon themselves of everyone else behaving that way too. And then consider that they have given everyone else their blessing to do exactly that.

They never seem to do that, however. They always seem to want all kind of laws and customs of behaviour to apply to everyone else - so that they, uniquely and individually, can live their life of self interest in peace. That's not a philosophy, it's just overgrown adolescence.

[Svartalf]

There the problem of direct/indirect and immediate/delayed self interest...

One may do things that are unpleasant, undesired, or apparently deleterious, because they will buy goodwill for him, or contribute to a desirable state of things... like paying taxes to maintain roads, firefighters, and a justice system.

[Robert_S]

Of course there is the flexible nature of the definition of "self"

Are my offspring and sibling half of "me"? Genetically: yes. But socially and ethically? If I commit a felony, should my brother and daughter each be called on to serve half of my sentence if I flee the country?

When I go out of my way to help someone, could it be said that I am being unselfish even if I do so for the good feeling I get from doing so? Maybe it's because I see a bit of myself in the other person.

[SteveB]

Your siblings aren't a genetic half of you. Your kids are though. Well slightly less than 50%.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You should all be less selfish, and gimme all your stuff.

[Robert_S]

You should all be less selfish, and gimme all your stuff.

Material possessions only get in the way of happiness.

[redunderthebed]

Left to my own devices i'am a extremely self-centred prick if it doesnt concern myself or made myself look good i couldn't give a toss.That's where AA came in i worked the 12 steps and realised the root of 99.9% of my problems much less alcoholism is self-centeredness resentful et al, the bottle was but a symptom hence only 1 step mentions alcohol because it would be too easy to blame everything on the drink. But now with my faith and the program i can be considerate of others and i try to be of service to god and others.

I find now that when i get in that head space of being completely self-centered etc that things start going to shit but i'm thankful that i've got the tools to change that.

There can be a real passive aggressive side to selflessness-- the whole martyr thing that people like my MIL specialize in.
"Look at all I do for you. How can you not just do everything the way I'd like, out of gratitude for all I've given up and given over? Well, I'm strong-- I'll carry on. I'll just pour on the guilt and the judgement..."

I would muuuuuch rather deal with someone who's willing to say what they want and make a case for it--- who admits their desires and is willing to work with other people to either make them happen or work out a compromise.

That has sweet fuck all to do with selflessness that is manipulation and she is only doing it so she can get her own way with things.

[hadespussercats]

Red, you're probably right. But I think she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. Which makes it worse, because I can't be mad at her for doing shit on purpose.

[Robert_S]

Red, you're probably right. But I think she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. Which makes it worse, because I can't be mad at her for doing shit on purpose.

I bet you can! Maybe you're not trying hard enough.

[hadespussercats]

Red, you're probably right. But I think she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. Which makes it worse, because I can't be mad at her for doing shit on purpose.

I bet you can! Maybe you're not trying hard enough.

[redunderthebed]

Red, you're probably right. But I think she doesn't realize that's what she's doing. Which makes it worse, because I can't be mad at her for doing shit on purpose.

It's a learnt behaviour and she probably has never being called out for it and therefor doesn't know what she is doing it doesn't make it any less wrong or bullshit.