Vegetarianism, atheism and morality.

[Tero]

Well, we are all filter feeders now. We don't capture anything.

[Warren Dew]

Thoughts?

My thought on the subject is that agriculture is the most destructive force ever invented by humans, not only killing myriad animals but destroying entire ecosystems. Even if that were not the case, plants are still living beings; killing plants for food but not animals is just drawing the parochial line against eating things too closely related to oneself in a different place.

I think eating only not just free range, but pastured meat is the most morally justified position, if you can afford it. Eating only animals that have led natural and enjoyable lives and have been killed with a minimum of suffering is, in my opinion, superior from a moral standpoint to eating plants grown on farms.

Me, as much of my meat is pastured or wild as I can afford, but I admit that's not all of what I eat.

[FBM]

As far as I can tell, a gread deal of our genetic makeup is committed to enabling us to metabolize nutrients unique to meat.

[Ronja]

Is there a suitable old homeopathy thread to merge the homeopathy tangent on? I'll check...

Found six in "Serious stuff" alone.

This is the newest in Science etc., I guess it will do: http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27666

Locking thread for splitting, just a moment... done

Carry on, Constable...

[Audley Strange]

This topic was discussed in a 77 page thread at RatSkep:

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post3 ... at#p349799

I've switched to mostly fish, lentils&rice, eggs, and whey powder for protein sources. I did BBQ a ton of pork chops and t-bone steaks in the past, and the only regret I feel is for what that did to my heart's arteries.

Cheers for that Amused, I contributed to that thread, but man I fucking hate moralists. "My arbitrary line in the sand is real and makes me a better person than you evil other side of the liners!!!!"

If you don't want to contribute to the industrial slaughter of animals, don't. However don't start prancing about like you're the new Jesus just because you have denied yourself a dinner and get off my back with your meat is sin bullshit too.

Dinner is only a moral issue to those who want it to be a moral issue in order to validate their arbitrary choice as meaningful. The animals still die, and if the market is not there then they'll all die a lot quicker. How would that work for the ecosystem you think? Imagine if all the cows and chickens were slaughtered because it was too costly to keep them alive since no one was buying them. That a preferable endgame? Cows and Chicken black market farmed to extinction? Hasn't factory farming and high intensity farming been around long enough now that to get rid of it overnight would have dramatic repercussions on that?

[Ronja]

Audley, have you seen someone in this thread advocating an abrupt change, to get rid of factory farming and high intensity farming overnight? I did not get that impression.

[Animavore]

Vegetarian 'morality' is self serving bullshit as far as I'm concerned. As is all 'morality'. Advances in neurology show that we are rationalising, not rational creatures. We see something, we don't like it, then we justify it with a lot of wordy bollox. Take 'specieism' for instance, I've never heard such an emotionally manipulative word in all my life. We are and always will be 'specieist'. I don't remember the vegetarians whining when we wiped out all those poor widdle small pox

Our morals and laws are based around social cohesion. It's all about getting along with each other and not fucking each other over to our detriment. Whether Babe lives or dies does not affect that.

[Audley Strange]

Audley, have you seen someone in this thread advocating an abrupt change, to get rid of factory farming and high intensity farming overnight? I did not get that impression.

No, but is the end game not to make them non-profitable as quickly as possible? If it's an issue of cruelty, surely any other goal other than to stop it immediately would be the opposite of the moral position one is taking, you know, that "If I stop eating meat we'll end animal cruelty" nonsense.

If it's an aesthetic or emotional choice, fine. But when one starts pinning meat onto morality one is walking through a self planted mine-field.

[Ronja]

Audley, have you seen someone in this thread advocating an abrupt change, to get rid of factory farming and high intensity farming overnight? I did not get that impression.

No, but is the end game not to make them non-profitable as quickly as possible?

Er... no, I think. Sudden, big changes are not likely to enhance the well-being of anyone involved, regardless of their species. IMO - others may see things differently, of course.

[Audley Strange]

Audley, have you seen someone in this thread advocating an abrupt change, to get rid of factory farming and high intensity farming overnight? I did not get that impression.

No, but is the end game not to make them non-profitable as quickly as possible?

Er... no, I think. Sudden, big changes are not likely to enhance the well-being of anyone involved, regardless of their species. IMO - others may see things differently, of course.

Of course. That's quite the point. The actuality of the situation is unquestionable, we commodify animals, we torture them, treat them like insensate products and slaughter them. The moral position that claims that it is wrong to eat meat because of this process surely implies a swift end to such processes? Perhaps not, but I thought morality was supposed to be about consistency.

[Ronja]

Sorry Audley, I still do not get what you mean.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I blame Darwin.

[Rum]

Vegetarian 'morality' is self serving bullshit as far as I'm concerned. As is all 'morality'. Advances in neurology show that we are rationalising, not rational creatures. We see something, we don't like it, then we justify it with a lot of wordy bollox. Take 'specieism' for instance, I've never heard such an emotionally manipulative word in all my life. We are and always will be 'specieist'. I don't remember the vegetarians whining when we wiped out all those poor widdle small pox

Our morals and laws are based around social cohesion. It's all about getting along with each other and not fucking each other over to our detriment. Whether Babe lives or dies does not affect that.

'Self serving bullshit'? And yet one of the things that higher apes seem to have developed is empathy, the ability to put ourselves in the circumstances of others and to feel pity. You seem to be dismissing this. I have empathy for a pig which is reared in a crate, can't turn around, is inseminated, has ten piglets which will suffer the same fate, eventually to be slaughtered along with hundreds of its fellows in an assembly line of death. It isn't bullshit to view this process as immoral.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Vegetarianism is like pacifism. Nice when you can "afford" it. But quickly broken in times of crisis.

[Animavore]

Vegetarian 'morality' is self serving bullshit as far as I'm concerned. As is all 'morality'. Advances in neurology show that we are rationalising, not rational creatures. We see something, we don't like it, then we justify it with a lot of wordy bollox. Take 'specieism' for instance, I've never heard such an emotionally manipulative word in all my life. We are and always will be 'specieist'. I don't remember the vegetarians whining when we wiped out all those poor widdle small pox

Our morals and laws are based around social cohesion. It's all about getting along with each other and not fucking each other over to our detriment. Whether Babe lives or dies does not affect that.

'Self serving bullshit'? And yet one of the things that higher apes seem to have developed is empathy, the ability to put ourselves in the circumstances of others and to feel pity. You seem to be dismissing this. I have empathy for a pig which is reared in a crate, can't turn around, is inseminated, has ten piglets which will suffer the same fate, eventually to be slaughtered along with hundreds of its fellows in an assembly line of death. It isn't bullshit to view this process as immoral.

Yes. It is. Morality in general is bullshit. There are things I'll do and things I'm not prepared to do. That's it. Shooting a deer I'll do absolutely no problem. I'll even enjoy it and the subsequent dinners. Shooting a child - not so much. I don't see where morals come into it. This may disgust you but please don't turn, "I find those actions objectional" into, "Those actions are immoral."