Is it possible for a normal person to become a paedophile?

[Gallstones]

Maybe if you could state your point in fewer words people would actually read them?

That's an interesting suggestion. However you've overlooked an important point. If I did use fewer words, I'd have no way to tell the mouth breathers like yourself apart from those who are worth listening to.

Glad I could clear up your confusion on this point. Feel free to ask my assistance in any future misunderstandings you might have. If you find yourself hopelessly mired in sentences containing more than six words, or using words of more than two syllables, my inbox is just a few clicks away.

Best Wishes,
Apophenia

Please, I'm not confused. I just find your long winded sanctimony boring and uninspired.
Boring isn't worth reading let alone listened to.
I also have this loathing for passive aggressiveness.
Nothing personal.

Now, if you can take your attention off me and contribute something substantive to the topic that doesn't contain extraneous vocabulary....


FYI resorting to crap like this..

the mouth breathers like yourself

...should embarrass you because it is obviously weak and desperate.

Endeavor to do better next time. No one is convinced by ad hominems pulled out of an opponent's ass.

You are welcome.

[Evabot]

I want to know why it is, that of those children who are sexually exploited, it is the males who are more likely to go on and offend as adults.

That's a really fucking good question.

[Mr.Samsa]

I want to know why it is, that of those children who are sexually exploited, it is the males who are more likely to go on and offend as adults.

Is that true?

I imagine there would be difficulties in measuring these things because of the general difficulty in measuring the true rate of female pedophiles. Due to factors like societal acceptance of older women with younger boys, greater access and privacy, etc. So the difference between rates of men and women offenders is nowhere near as large as what it is perceived as being, and I imagine the true numbers would necessarily change the rates of offenders who were molested as children.

Yes I do think it is true.
Do you think it is true that boys are not reporting more than girls are not reporting?
Because, when it comes to sex crimes not reporting is the norm and yet most reports made are from girls about men or older males.

Indeed, but of course there are extra pressures on boys and men not to report that they've been abused. Men are supposed to be strong, and tough, and of course males are supposed to love sex so if you report being raped or abused as a kid, then you're obviously a "fag" or a weirdo.

I've not offended. I know of no other woman who has.

Sure, but I've not offended and I know of no other man who has. Unless you mean "know" as in "heard stories about", then you can find lots of them online. I think the current estimates suggest that around 8% of child molestation is carried out by women. It obviously exists, I don't think anyone would deny that, the question is just whether the gap is real or not.

What are these great difficulties in measuring the true rate of female offenders? Why is measuring the incidence of female offenders more difficult than measuring the rate of male offenders? Physical evidence, stigma?

Part of the problem is the legal definition of pedophilia, which differs from the clinical sense in that it simply applies to any sex with a minor. Since society expects men to have younger women (and for women to have older men), it is statistically true that more men will fall into this category. Then there are also laws which make it more likely for the man to be classed as a pedophile, for example, until recently (and still in some countries) whenever two minors have sex, the male is charged with rape and since the girl is a minor, he will sometimes (depending on country) be placed on the sex offenders list. This fact obviously skyrockets the number of male rapists and pedophiles. Then there's the laws which don't accept the idea that a woman can rape a man, so depending on the age of her minor, she would get off pretty lightly. This is all tied into societal beliefs about men and women, with the idea that women are "pure" and can be trusted with children, so they are given far more opportunities to molest children than men, and are often placed in a position where they can prevent the child from reporting it, or wanting to report it. And when we add this to the stigma I discussed above about reporting, we find that most researchers agree that the figures on female pedophiles is hugely underestimated (with male pedophiles overestimated).

Are the majority of sex offenders, in general, male rather than female--or not?

I'm not sure, I think all we can say for sure right now is that the difference is not as great as it appears to be. Whether this means there is no difference at all is another question. Of those reported and charged, sex offenders are predominantly male though.

Is there an equal incidence of sexual exploitation between male and female children?
Between men and women?

I have no idea, I've never looked at those numbers.

Are men being raped and groped to the same degree as women are being raped and groped?

I imagine women would probably be raped more, simply due to the fact that it's easier for a man to overpower a woman (generally speaking) than the other way around. So even if, in a hypothetical world, the number of male and female rapists was equal, we'd probably find that men would be more successful at it. I imagine that groping and rape in men is hugely underreported though for the reasons I've discussed above, mainly the idea that if you complain about a woman giving you a blowjob whilst you're passed out, or if you're overpowered by a woman who inserts something into your ass, then you're obviously a "fag".

[FBM]

I want to know why it is, that of those children who are sexually exploited, it is the males who are more likely to go on and offend as adults.

That's a really fucking good question.

Could be a problem of reporting. I know that if I'd managed to shag one of my teachers when I was in middle or high school, I'd have been happy as a clam. I'd sure as hell not report it, for fear that it would put an end to the "abuse". I wish I'd lived closer to my lit teacher so she would've had a chance to groom me.

[nellikin]

Yes - but it does seem to be true that around 90% of children who are molested are female, and over 90% of offenders male. I blame testosterone.

[charlou]

I think it's probably much easier than that. I think an important factor is a society where pre-pubescent children are viewed as sexual objects combined with psychological maladjustment on the part of an individual when it comes to social barriers and mores and a personality defect that allows the individual to believe that the pleasures of sex that they experience when they molest a child are shared by the child. I think there is a distinction between a rapist who uses sex and pain as a punishment and domination and a pedophile who is seeking sexual pleasure with a child. I suspect that most pedophiles "groom" their victims precisely in order to not only convince the child to "consent" to the activity, but also to self-justify and rationalize their own behavior as that of giving pleasure that the child is seeking to the child.

One problem I see with this discussion, aside from the utter vacuum of hard evidence, is the tendency to view mental health as some kind of linear scale along which "normalcy" rests in a certain spot along the continuum. Abnormality alone is a very complex phenomena, even accepting that rapists, paedophiles and murderers are in some clinical sense abnormal. There is a danger in defining behaviors you don't like as pathological, simply as a way of demonizing those who engage in such behaviors and distance yourselves from them. This was the situation in the U.S. prior to the blossoming of the gay power movement here following the Stonewall Riots. Prior to then, homosexuality was ghettoized, prosecuted and subjected to all sorts of horrific treatments in the name of curing them (IIRC, this was also the age of the ice pick lobotomy; Lobotomies of gay people stopped in Western Germany only in 1979.). I see a similar trend among some atheists, who would like to persuade people to view beliefs they don't like as pathological -- evidence of a sick mind. Having lived more than 40 years with mental illness, been involved in a lot of therapy and a lot of strange times, I can tell you it is not hard to find yourself thinking, believing and doing things you never imagined you would do -- and all within the confines of normalcy (e.g. the folie a deux of false memory syndrome which has devastated many otherwise healthy families, and played a strong part in such travesties as the McMartin Preschool Trial). Now I'm going to put this in bold so nobody misunderstands me this time: I do not accept paedophilia or rape as acceptable behaviors. I do think it's easy, perhaps desirable, to see such people as categorically different from us. I think it's more important to draw distinctions where they actually exist, rather than simply where we would like them to be, for our own peace of mind.

Seth raises an important point about the sexualization of children in our society (speaking specifically of the U.S. and such as the Jon Bonet Ramsey case, but also thinking of the disturbing trends in child pornography and prostitution in Japan; I can't speak to other nations). And I would be remiss if I didn't draw connections between both rape, early sexualization and pre-pubescent sexual relations, and that of the possibility that such behaviors may be evolutionarily favored by common selection mechanisms. And it's clear this is not a one-sided phenomena, as recent cases of grade school children engaging in sex, and the average age of teen pregnancy rolling backward (this is also a side of increased health as a result of improvements in modern agriculture). (Just a sample, from yesterday's headlines: Five fifth-graders in the US state of Louisiana have been arrested today after an investigation into allegations that students had sex in an unsupervised classroom, with other classmates present.)

Regards the Billy Connolly case, if I'm permitted a bit of groundless speculation, it's possible that his father's behavior was an outgrowth of unbearable pain, for which he likely drank, to relieve his suffering. Down come the inhibitions and out come the demons -- attempting to find momentary shelter from that pain by inflicting it on someone else.

Now, regards the speculation that so-called "dry spells" might corrupt a person. I in no sense can lay claim to normalcy. That caveat in place however, I have been celibate for over 15 years, and it has had no consequence on my feelings or behaviors. Granted, as a thinker, my sex life has always sat in the rumble seat, but that's just who I am constitutionally. Is that abnormal? I don't think so. If it were, and that alone led to sex crimes, the statistics would likely be through the roof. While I think about sex and pleasure myself, I have almost zero interest in seeking physical companionship.

Thanks for the links ... interesting reading. I recall the McMartin pre-school case ... it really was a case of WTF?, at the time, and a shining example of how not to deal with such accusations and allegations.

Regarding media's part in the sexualisation of children, the UK is currently looking at ways of reducing the impact of media on the sexual development of children. Article.

I see a similar trend among some atheists, who would like to persuade people to view beliefs they don't like as pathological -- evidence of a sick mind.

Yep, that attitude, and the general dehumanisation and/or demonisation of theists is not going to achieve anything in bringing people to common, rational understanding.

[Mr.Samsa]

Yes - but it does seem to be true that around 90% of children who are molested are female, and over 90% of offenders male. I blame testosterone.

I'm not sure if this is a serious comment or not, but what role would testosterone play in that figure (if we accepted that such a difference were true)?

[charlou]

Regarding media's part in the sexualisation of children, the UK is currently looking at ways of reducing the impact of media on the sexual development of children. Article.

On that point, as it pertains to this topic, though ... When it comes to abuse of children, to say that it's the behaviour or dress of the child that is responsible for how an adult interacts with the child sexually, regardless of why children are behaving or dressing that way, is akin to blaming rape victims of any age, due to their choice of lifestyle and/or dress.

[Mr.Samsa]

Regarding media's part in the sexualisation of children, the UK is currently looking at ways of reducing the impact of media on the sexual development of children. Article.

On that point, as it pertains to this topic, though ... When it comes to abuse of children, to say that it's the behaviour or dress of the child that is responsible for how an adult interacts with the child sexually, regardless of why children are behaving or dressing that way, is akin to blaming rape victims of any age, due to their choice of lifestyle and/or dress.

I think it's important to identify causes of problem behaviors, whether it results in something similar to 'blaming the victim' or not. As far as I know, the research suggests that 'dressing provocatively' isn't really a risk factor for rape but if it were the case, then I don't think it would be blaming the victim to recommend that people do not put themselves into a high risk group. In the same way that we identify not locking your car or house increases your chances of being robbed, it doesn't make it victim blaming to suggest that they consider locking their car and house when they leave it. Of course, if they do get robbed (or if the 'provocatively dressed' women do get raped) it is not their fault, they did not make somebody break the law. But when we're identifying causes and at-risk groups, it seems ridiculous to ignore these factors.

More specifically though, I don't think this is a case of blaming the victim, and instead it's an attack on a culture which promotes these urges and behaviors.

[Evabot]

Strange and random connection. When I worked with sex offenders (I was a private tutor at a rehabilitation center for juvenile delinquent boys) all of them were obsessed with Harry Potter. Aside from various similar traits, this one book series linked all of them. I found it pretty odd. They, in general, were all into the fantasy genre. Assuming the whole, "yes, escaping reality, their past, creating a new world" I wonder if there is more to it?


Sorry, this thread just reminded me of that job, it's one that I hold dear to my heart. And yes, all of them where sexually abused, males, and repeat offenders. With that said, agreed, I'm sure many cases of female sex offenders go unreported especially when I use to explain this job to people they would jump to "WOOOOOOO, you were a private tutor at a boysssss home ". In jest, it was funny but in reality, I'm an educator and thinking about being sexual with anyone under 18 (and these boys were 13-17) turns my stomach.

/ end possible derail? lol.

[Warren Dew]

I think most people would probably accept that in the right circumstances a person could be pushed over the edge to murder

Sure - but by the time they're pushed over the edge, they're no longer normal. Same with pedophiles.

Idk... evolutionarily speaking, murder is probably a normal human behaviour in certain circumstances.

Evolutionarily speaking, sex with adolescent girls is probably even more normal.

[Seth]

Gee - you are an expert in so many areas. Amazing.

That's because, unlike some, I have a brain and I put it to use regularly.

[Seth]

The distinction of "true pedophile" isn't one that rules out people who are attracted to adults too, but rather it distinguishes between "exclusive" and "non-exclusive" pedophiles, both are accepted under the clinical definition. All that is required under the definition, at the very least, is to have a persistent attraction to children under 11 for 6 months or more. No sexual assault needs to take place, and it doesn't need to be exclusive. Unfortunately, most data we have on pedophiles isn't collected using the clinical definition, and instead pedophilia (under law) usually is just considered as being 'having sex with a minor' - hence why male pedophiles largely outnumber female pedophiles (due to the different laws regarding male and female sexual activity, and societal pressures expecting an older man with younger woman, etc).

This is an important point. I was thinking about what I wrote and it occurred to me that we have not yet stated a credible definition of what "pedophilia" is.

And this brings us back to the discussion we had with Lord Pasternack some time ago about sexual precocity, particularly in girls.

One of the other factors that might explain some aspects of the evident rise in adult/child sex is the fact that, particularly in the US, girls are reaching puberty and menarche significantly earlier, sometimes as young as 10 or 11 years of age. I have friends who have a girl who was fully-developed, with breasts, pubic hair and had her first period at 11. It was frankly impossible to distinguish her from a 16 or 17 year old girl. She was 5'4" tall and had all the requisite curves. I was utterly shocked when I was told she was only 11.

Some scientists put this lowering of the age of sexual maturity in girls on the almost ubiquitous existence of female hormones in the environment. This pollution, primarily from plastics and from the presence of birth-control chemicals in water supplies, has become so widespread that even fish in our rivers are being affected, and we now see sexually-ambiguous fish, and fewer male fish, in streams downstream from municipal sewage outlets. Modern sewer plants are not built to remove or neutralize birth-control hormones.

This phenomenon was first seen in Boulder, Colorado some years ago, and since then studies have found the same effects in other places, and since most towns and cities draw their drinking water from rivers, and purify it, they are in effect drinking the effluent from upstream, and this includes hormones that haven't been tested for in the past.

Combine this with hormone-mimicking chemicals in plastic, and we are seeing a detectable trend downwards in the age of female sexual maturity in parts of the US.

Mr. Samsa, your definition sets the age at 11, presumably because this is sufficiently before most girls begin to develop secondary sexual characteristics like pubic hair and breasts, but I wonder if this might need to be adjusted to be more objectively based in the physical development of the girl. It's somewhat difficult to say, from an objective scientific viewpoint, that attraction to a sexually mature female, regardless of her age, is anything but biologically sound. Objections to such attractions seem to mostly be based in the "ick factor" and social mores, not any rational biological metric.

So before we go too far, we need to accurately define what a pedophile is, based on objective science, not social mores. An old/young relationship might be socially and legally unacceptable for any number of reasons, but I have my doubts that simple sexual attraction to a sexually-mature person really qualifies as a psychological defect.

[Seth]

I want to know why it is, that of those children who are sexually exploited, it is the males who are more likely to go on and offend as adults.

That's a really fucking good question.

Is the premise true, however? Is it a fact that male children who are sexually "exploited" are more likely to go on and offend as adults? I've not seen any statistical evidence that would support this allegation.

And as for women offenders, I give you Mary Kay Letourneau and a host of other female teachers recently arrested (and generally given a slap on the wrist) for having sex with underage boys.

And yes, I think it's much less likely that an older woman having sex with a young boy will be reported, because most boys who get introduced to sex by older women look on it as an honor and a very satisfactory experience, not as "rape." It's prudes who automatically view all sex between adults and young people as "sexual assault," not so much the purported "victims" in many cases. Viz: the movie "The Summer of '42" in which the whole movie is about the rite of sexual passage of a young man with a much older woman.

[Gallstones]

I want to know why it is, that of those children who are sexually exploited, it is the males who are more likely to go on and offend as adults.

That's a really fucking good question.

Is the premise true, however? Is it a fact that male children who are sexually "exploited" are more likely to go on and offend as adults? I've not seen any statistical evidence that would support this allegation.

And as for women offenders, I give you Mary Kay Letourneau and a host of other female teachers recently arrested (and generally given a slap on the wrist) for having sex with underage boys.

And yes, I think it's much less likely that an older woman having sex with a young boy will be reported, because most boys who get introduced to sex by older women look on it as an honor and a very satisfactory experience, not as "rape." It's prudes who automatically view all sex between adults and young people as "sexual assault," not so much the purported "victims" in many cases. Viz: the movie "The Summer of '42" in which the whole movie is about the rite of sexual passage of a young man with a much older woman.

Perception changes things. If the child is a boy and he is willing and honored then it is not--emotionally--rape.
If a person is unwilling and considers it a violation, then it is.

In the former case the experience is validation, in the latter case it is an injury.

I am not convinced by all the tap dancing. More males are sexual offenders--with the intention to exploit--than are females. Female sexual offenders are rare. If they weren't they wouldn't be sensations.