Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ever had a look at pre 1914 military discipline?

I do not know if it''s ever been translated, but I may suggest you read Biribi, by Georges Darien...

and yes, I mean as applied to conscripts.

Ogg used to clobber the shit out of the other cavemen if they stepped out of line.

[Svartalf]

Seriously.
http://www.amazon.com/Biribi-Discipline ... 756&sr=1-2

and the illo on my father's edition

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So, that was solely applied to conscripts? Or are you going infrared with the herrings here?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ever had a look at pre 1914 military discipline?

I do not know if it''s ever been translated, but I may suggest you read Biribi, by Georges Darien...

and yes, I mean as applied to conscripts.

Wait, so now we're talking about conscription pre-1914? Well, why stop there? Why not go back and cite Sparta as evidence that all military men are gay?

It struck me that the OP was more in reference to WWII and post-WWII times. Calling that modern conscription "slavery," and then appealing to a standard of disciplinary enforcement long-disused to support one's case isn't very convincing.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Too fucking many movies.

[Svartalf]

Well, sure, enlisted soldiers with extreme discipline problems went there too... Then again, they had signed for it, and then committed breaches of contract.
You'd expect conscripts eventually destined to come back to civilian life (eventually because time spent in the brig, or amusing variations on it found there, was not counted as time served, so you still had to spend more time under arms) to be treated somewhat more leniently.

[Svartalf]

Ever had a look at pre 1914 military discipline?

I do not know if it''s ever been translated, but I may suggest you read Biribi, by Georges Darien...

and yes, I mean as applied to conscripts.

Wait, so now we're talking about conscription pre-1914? Well, why stop there? Why not go back and cite Sparta as evidence that all military men are gay?

It struck me that the OP was more in reference to WWII and post-WWII times. Calling that modern conscription "slavery," and then appealing to a standard of disciplinary enforcement long-disused to support one's case isn't very convincing.

I'm citing historically attested practices, from times that my grandparents knew, to demonstrate how the practice can easily be abused and turned into something little better than actual slavery.
and yes, you could argue that all ancient Greek military was made up of gay, or bi men.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well, sure, enlisted soldiers with extreme discipline problems went there too... Then again, they had signed for it, and then committed breaches of contract.

Volunteers and conscripts treated the same? Blows the OP's theory out of the water. Thanks.

You'd expect conscripts eventually destined to come back to civilian life (eventually because time spent in the brig, or amusing variations on it found there, was not counted as time served, so you still had to spend more time under arms) to be treated somewhat more leniently.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No one has argued that the practice of conscription cannot be abused. Indeed, I've already mentioned that conscription can in fact be a form of slavery -- that in the post you dismissed:

It seems fair to say that while a slave is almost certainly a conscript (no one volunteers to be owned by another person, marriage excluded ), a conscript is not necessarily a slave.

What is being argued is the abuse of the language, in calling conscription "slavery". Citing centuries-old practices which are disavowed by every modern military force in the world as support for your position is unconvincing, to say the least. That was the point of my mentioning Sparta.

Look, you don't like conscription -- I get it. But equivocating slavery and conscription is simply trying to lade upon one word the evil connotations of another. As such, it's mere rhetoric, and not worthy of as much attention as has been paid it already.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Look, you don't like conscription -- I get it. But equivocating slavery and conscription is simply trying to lade upon one word the evil connotations of another. As such, it's mere rhetoric, and not worthy of as much attention as has been paid it already.

And being appallingly unprepared to debate the topic doesn't help him, either.

[Svartalf]

dammit, I hate when it takes that long to realize a misunderstanding...

and I'm not fundamentally against conscription, but the French practices regarding it are revolting.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

dammit, I hate when it takes that long to realize a misunderstanding...

and I'm not fundamentally against conscription, but the French practices regarding it are revolting.

"There's always a penalty for being French."

[Svartalf]

Well, sure, enlisted soldiers with extreme discipline problems went there too... Then again, they had signed for it, and then committed breaches of contract.

Volunteers and conscripts treated the same? Blows the OP's theory out of the water. Thanks.

You'd expect conscripts eventually destined to come back to civilian life (eventually because time spent in the brig, or amusing variations on it found there, was not counted as time served, so you still had to spend more time under arms) to be treated somewhat more leniently.

Actually, I misspoke... It looks like the African Battalions saw few, if any actual enlisted soldiers, it seems they were specifically used as a posting for conscripts regarded as antisocial trouble makers, whether the trouble arose from disciplinary problems in other units, of for young men who were convicts before they reached the age when they were to be called for military service... those were inducted into those disciplinary battalions straight on getting out of jail... Then again, at the time, an enlisted soldier who could not be corrected by a couple months at his barracks' brig, with bread and water and hard labor was apt to get shot.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Look, you don't like conscription -- I get it. But equivocating slavery and conscription is simply trying to lade upon one word the evil connotations of another. As such, it's mere rhetoric, and not worthy of as much attention as has been paid it already.

And being appallingly unprepared to debate the topic doesn't help him, either.

Well, I'm trying to avoid personal barbs, myself. The whole flies/honey/vinegar thing.

[Svartalf]

Look, you don't like conscription -- I get it. But equivocating slavery and conscription is simply trying to lade upon one word the evil connotations of another. As such, it's mere rhetoric, and not worthy of as much attention as has been paid it already.

And being appallingly unprepared to debate the topic doesn't help him, either.

Well, I never got any lessons in rhetoric, and it's not like the subject was announced several weeks in advance for me to read up and drive the argument properly.