Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Sun May 06, 2012 6:24 pm

Svartalf wrote:Bug the "special definition" thing... how do you define individuals deprived of their rights and forced into service on threats of punishment (up to death) without rcourse to courts?
Except that in America, that isn't the case, and it wasn't the case even when conscription was extant.
The only divergence from regular slavery is that they were not chattels and subject to being sold. (then again, they didn't have the possibility to buy their freedom either).
Again, not so. Slaves historically could not vote. They could not demonstrate. They were often imprisoned when not being labored, in order to ensure their continued servitude. Those conditions were notably absent in the American military.
slave    [sleyv] noun, verb, slaved, slav·ing.
noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a slave ant.
5. Photography . a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
con·script
   [v. kuhn-skript; n., adj. kon-skript] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to draft for military or naval service.
2. to compel into service.
noun
3. a recruit obtained by conscription.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conscript
It seems fair to say that while a slave is almost certainly a conscript (no one volunteers to be owned by another person, marriage excluded :)), a conscript is not necessarily a slave.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Sun May 06, 2012 6:26 pm

Svartalf wrote:There was no such strategy in 1940 France.
Svartalf wrote:Defense in depth has nothing to do with the infamous "elastic defence" of 1940...
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Svartalf » Sun May 06, 2012 6:52 pm

Thumpalumpacus wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Bug the "special definition" thing... how do you define individuals deprived of their rights and forced into service on threats of punishment (up to death) without rcourse to courts?
Except that in America, that isn't the case, and it wasn't the case even when conscription was extant.
The only divergence from regular slavery is that they were not chattels and subject to being sold. (then again, they didn't have the possibility to buy their freedom either).
Again, not so. Slaves historically could not vote. They could not demonstrate. They were often imprisoned when not being labored, in order to ensure their continued servitude. Those conditions were notably absent in the American military.
slave    [sleyv] noun, verb, slaved, slav·ing.
noun
1. a person who is the property of and wholly subject to another; a bond servant.
2. a person entirely under the domination of some influence or person: a slave to a drug.
3. a drudge: a housekeeping slave.
4. a slave ant.
5. Photography . a subsidiary flash lamp actuated through its photoelectric cell when the principal flash lamp is discharged.
con·script
   [v. kuhn-skript; n., adj. kon-skript] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1. to draft for military or naval service.
2. to compel into service.
noun
3. a recruit obtained by conscription.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conscript
It seems fair to say that while a slave is almost certainly a conscript (no one volunteers to be owned by another person, marriage excluded :)), a conscript is not necessarily a slave.
I don't know how the Merkin military treated its draftees, but in France, anybody under a draft order was deprived of recourse to courts, as they were de facto put under military jurisdiction, nor could they vote (a leftover of pre 1945 regs that fobade the military from voting that never got corrected for draftees due to the fact they didn't have an effective permanent residence where to register), nor does French military have any rights to go on strike or demonstrate, even now. and you could construe the obligation to be at barracks at fixed time, or be declared AWOL, even when you are not actually on duty a form of imprisonment.

and the dictionary trick is nice... but can you tell me with a straight face and in good faith that there is any real difference between a bond servant and a person compelled into service?
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 06, 2012 6:54 pm

Bond servant or slave?
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Svartalf » Sun May 06, 2012 6:57 pm

Thumpalumpacus wrote:
Svartalf wrote:There was no such strategy in 1940 France.
Svartalf wrote:Defense in depth has nothing to do with the infamous "elastic defence" of 1940...
Yep, "elastic defence" was a way to make fun of the "if you can't stop them, retreat" attitude that took place of actual strategy when the Germans invaded.

In depth defence never was part of French military doctrine, there were no plans to regroup back and set up an appropriate welcome for the invaders, what we did was what Napoleon did in Russia, without being harried by Russian winter.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Svartalf » Sun May 06, 2012 6:58 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Bond servant or slave?
Striped of zebra colored?
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 06, 2012 6:59 pm

Buh-bye
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Sun May 06, 2012 7:01 pm

Svartalf wrote:I don't know how the Merkin military treated its draftees, but in France, anybody under a draft order was deprived of recourse to courts, as they were de facto put under military jurisdiction, nor could they vote (a leftover of pre 1945 regs that fobade the military from voting that never got corrected for draftees due to the fact they didn't have an effective permanent residence where to register), nor does French military have any rights to go on strike or demonstrate, even now. and you could construe the obligation to be at barracks at fixed time, or be declared AWOL, even when you are not actually on duty a form of imprisonment.
Well, we're each referring to our own experiences, then. such subjectivity would seem to erase any possibility or putting an objective label onto the entire experience of conscription. As I pointed out, it appears that conscription can be slavery, but that it doesn't mean that it automatically is slavery.
and the dictionary trick is nice... but can you tell me with a straight face and in good faith that there is any real difference between a bond servant and a person compelled into service?
Firstly, when dealing with the meanings of words, looking at their definitions is not "tricky"; it's common sense. Would you argue that atoms are molecules without looking at what those words mean? This objection of yours is retarded. We're discussing the meanings of words -- what they actually mean is important.

And yes, I can tell you that with a straight face. Had you been paying attention, you would have seen upthread where I, and more eloquently Gawdzilla, have done exactly that.

You're not reading what is actually written, apparently.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Seabass » Sun May 06, 2012 7:58 pm

This is a ridiculous semantical "debate". Conscription and slavery may have something in common but they are not the same thing. Some of you are just stretching the meaning of slavery, the same way conservatives do when they call taxation slavery.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun May 06, 2012 8:35 pm

Seabass wrote:This is a ridiculous semantical "debate". Conscription and slavery may have something in common but they are not the same thing. Some of you are just stretching the meaning of slavery, the same way conservatives do when they call taxation slavery.
I was thinking "holocaust" back a few pages, but didn't bother drawing the analogy.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Svartalf » Sun May 06, 2012 8:54 pm

Holocause is a waste, you want to cook the sacrifice animal, not burn it to ash.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Rum » Sun May 06, 2012 8:59 pm

When it comes to it though think of the barbarity of it. Millions and millions of men (mostly) have been sent to fight for those in authority, often to certain death, with no choice or opt-out. It doesn't matter what it is called, it is the usurping of individual liberty and freedom for some 'greater' cause, the individual fate of individual people being subsumed by those in authority at the time.

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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Seabass » Sun May 06, 2012 9:16 pm

Rum wrote:It doesn't matter what it is called, it is the usurping of individual liberty and freedom for some 'greater' cause, the individual fate of individual people being subsumed by those in authority at the time.
Yes, this, exactly. There is no need to call it something it isn't; it's shitty on its own merits.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Thumpalumpacus » Sun May 06, 2012 9:21 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Seabass wrote:This is a ridiculous semantical "debate". Conscription and slavery may have something in common but they are not the same thing. Some of you are just stretching the meaning of slavery, the same way conservatives do when they call taxation slavery.
I was thinking "holocaust" back a few pages, but didn't bother drawing the analogy.
That explicitly came to mind last night, here. Words have meaning, and while language evolves, I think care should be taken that it doesn't evolve in such a manner as to weaken its impact. Aside from the ideological loading of PC speech, I detest the fact that it weakens the impact of our words. Say it and be done with it, and don't dilute meanings.

But since you brought up holocausts, slavery as practiced in America was indeed a holocaust. Comparing conscription to slavery belittles the sufferings, privations, and insults to dignity suffered by slaves, who had even such basic human drives as reproduction and subsistence regulated if not actually banned for the pragmatic purposes of the masters. "Drop and give me twenty" is a far cry from a whipping issued for looking Master in the eyes instead of down at his feet. Armies didn't hobble AWOL conscripts by slashing their Achilles tendons to prevent a repeat attempt at desertion.

Equivocating the two, conscription and slavery, is bullshit, at least as practiced in America.
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Re: Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

Post by Svartalf » Sun May 06, 2012 9:33 pm

Ever had a look at pre 1914 military discipline?

I do not know if it''s ever been translated, but I may suggest you read Biribi, by Georges Darien...

and yes, I mean as applied to conscripts.
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