BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

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GrahamH
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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by GrahamH » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:11 pm

jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Neurology is totally irrelevant to James and LI, it is mere Trompe-l'œil to them.
Even Wile E. Coyote employs rocket-skates to catch his cartoon-prey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQzzjBR9Etw

There is nothing wrong with science. The causal-relationships that we experience are meant to be experienced... and we can utilise that knowledge to affect other entities within experience. But we are in a different realm now. We are in the realm of discussing what really causes Wile E. to move faster.
Ah the absurdity! :lol:

Wile E uses the rocket-skates as an integral part of the experience (like the Sun), but he needs no brain. He needs no mechanism inside because it is made to happen from outside.

Why do we have brains that play no part in experience?

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Surendra Darathy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:14 pm

Little Idiot wrote:
When you can account for your own use of the term "physical", we may have something more to talk about.
Beyond the fact that the physical environment is a fact of our experience, what other account could I need?

We do experience it, therefore I am able to use the term and think about it. Whats more, I would be fairly silly not to do so, IMO.

Are we done now?
No, we're not, because "experience" in your so-called "philosophy" is not limited to the physical. You may turn out to be a guy without a philosophy if you're not very careful with the answer to this one. The "physical environment"? What is it? In your pseudo-philosophy, I mean.

You tried to say that the environment is the physical world "external to the body", but then there was all that stuff about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Because, LI, that's really what your pseudo-philosophy is doing here. You don't seem to commit yourself to whether the body is physical or not, depending on who's "experiencing" it. Your pseudo-philosophy has problems in dealing with other people. It's what I would call a wee bit "anti-social".
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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by jamest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:20 pm

GrahamH wrote:Wile E uses the rocket-skates as an integral part of the experience (like the Sun), but he needs no brain. He needs no mechanism inside because it is made to happen from outside.
Well, that level of detail is lacking in Looney Tunes rendering of the cartoon. But if Wile E. was self-aware and started wondering what caused that awareness, I'm sure LT would have painted a brain inside his skull. :lol:
Why do we have brains that play no part in experience?
Of course they play a part. They play the part of appearing to control bodily functions. They play the part of appearing to cause experience itself, to people such as yourself.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by GrahamH » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:29 pm

jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Wile E uses the rocket-skates as an integral part of the experience (like the Sun), but he needs no brain. He needs no mechanism inside because it is made to happen from outside.
Well, that level of detail is lacking in Looney Tunes rendering of the cartoon. But if Wile E. was self-aware and started wondering what caused that awareness, I'm sure LT would have painted a brain inside his skull. :lol:
Why do we have brains that play no part in experience?
Of course they play a part. They play the part of appearing to control bodily functions. They play the part of appearing to cause experience itself, to people such as yourself.
Have you realise why you get nowhere in these discussions? It is because you are going against the will of god in attempting to reveal the truth to people not meant to know it. What are you thinking? People like you are forcing X-god to make more shit up just to cover for the likes of you. Stop telling people what lots of people have believed for millennia and save x-god the trouble of having to invent a cast iron empirical explanation for mind as purely physical.

Follow the will of god and agree that the mind is physical and the brain accounts for consciousness.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by jamest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:43 pm

GrahamH wrote:Have you realise why you get nowhere in these discussions? It is because you are going against the will of god in attempting to reveal the truth to people not meant to know it. What are you thinking?
What am 'I' thinking? I'm thinking that the will of God does not necessarily desire that 'humanity' sleeps forever. Such a state-of-affairs could only lead, ultimately, to the complete demise of experience.

There is credibility in the idea of God wanting to forget itself, for a season. Alas, you appear to be a leaf in the autumn.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by GrahamH » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:49 pm

jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Have you realise why you get nowhere in these discussions? It is because you are going against the will of god in attempting to reveal the truth to people not meant to know it. What are you thinking?
What am 'I' thinking? I'm thinking that the will of God does not necessarily desire that 'humanity' sleeps forever. Such a state-of-affairs could only lead, ultimately, to the complete demise of experience.

There is credibility in the idea of God wanting to forget itself, for a season. Alas, you appear to be a leaf in the autumn.
Ah yes, 'experience' is god getting know what it is to not be god.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Surendra Darathy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:54 pm

Little Idiot wrote:I accept NS except where it tries to build on the materialistic assumption that there is a physical cause for consciousness. I even accept that it is correct for NS to look for this physical cause, I just point out it will not be found, because it doesnt exist.
Well, you should stop talking about "consciousnessness", yourself, because you cannot say anything meaningful about it, least of all what "causes" it. Zombies, again.
Little Idiot wrote:Every physical thing is also a mental thing, but not all thoughts are physical things.
And you really cannot tell us how you know which is which. This is why I call your stuff "pseudo-philosophy". It's not. It's an arbitrary taxonomy of experience.
Little Idiot wrote:Just so, I have no duality between physical and mental, as they are all mental. Physical is a subset of mental.
But it's an arbitrary taxonomy, because all you do is say that a distinction exists, and make no attempt to show how you distinguish one from the other. You hide behind saying "it's all mental", but don't say how you assign any part of it to your so-called "subset". In other words, you are bullshitting us about having a "subset". What is it that puts a particular experience into the subset you've designated for it by calling it "physical"? You've made your duality, now sleep in it.
Little Idiot wrote:The physical is a form of reality. I do not deny that it exists, I assert it does exist. I even say its a form of the (hypothetical) changeless reality.
There's no point, however, in saying so, because you have nothing to say about how you classify some of your mental world into the "physical". If you could, you might allow that brains are physical and interact with the physical. You would also have to say that souls interact with the timeless unity, which would have everyone laughing at you some more.

How do you make your classifications? That's work that you need to do, or else you are just preaching your religion. That's allowed here, apparently.
colubridae wrote:If you listen carefully you can hear the distant turbo whine of theophilis's rectum spooling up to produce some helpful assertions for his drowning soul mates.
+1
colubridae wrote:all we need now is lamont and we'll have a royal flush.
Turbocharged! So that's where all those sounds of sucking come from! I've heard some references to being "flushed with success". Or is that the suck-cess-pool?
jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote:Why do we have brains that play no part in experience?
Of course they play a part. They play the part of appearing to control bodily functions. They play the part of appearing to cause experience itself, to people such as yourself.
You're serious, aren't you, James. There are actually entities in your universe necessary and sufficient for creating appearances. What's wrong with the idea of screwing-off appearances entirely? The point is not that the empirical world is a representation of reality. The point is that it is all we have, except for making up shit about higher realities, by means of which you and LI are here to entertain us.
GrahamH wrote:
jamest wrote:
GrahamH wrote: Why do we have brains that play no part in experience?
Of course they play a part. They play the part of appearing to control bodily functions. They play the part of appearing to cause experience itself, to people such as yourself.
Have you realised why you get nowhere in these discussions? It is because you are going against the will of god in attempting to reveal the truth to people not meant to know it. What are you thinking? People like you are forcing X-god to make more shit up just to cover for the likes of you.
People who want to prove the existence of the god-thingy are a breed apart. Faith is not good enough for them. It's the same story every time. Faith-heads will approach skeptics with the huge song-and-dance about the logic and/or evidence for the god-thingy. Then when you sign up, question time is over. This is strictly a ploy aimed at unbelievers.

Those of you who used to be part of a faith community may recall this. Once you're in the body politic, questions and logic are not where it's at. Me, I never had it for a moment.

Sorry, JamesT and LI, but your respective brands of theology, individually and collectively, suck broken, shriveled, dead dingo dicks with prodigious enthusiasm.
jamest wrote: What am 'I' thinking? I'm thinking that the will of God does not necessarily desire that 'humanity' sleeps forever. Such a state-of-affairs could only lead, ultimately, to the complete demise of experience.

There is credibility in the idea of God wanting to forget itself, for a season. Alas, you appear to be a leaf in the autumn.
Yeah, sure. But this is where your powers of apologetics run out of steam. At the end, there are things that cannot be explained. There always are. Why go through the whole song and dance with the so-called "logical arguments", when in the end, one just must believe the credibility of an idea that God wanted to forget itself for a season.

You might have spared us the drama, James.
:dq:
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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by jamest » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:46 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:
jamest wrote:Of course they (brains) play a part. They play the part of appearing to control bodily functions. They play the part of appearing to cause experience itself, to people such as yourself.
You're serious, aren't you, James. There are actually entities in your universe necessary and sufficient for creating appearances.
I'm serious on the issue of causality, yes. Even if brains create the experience of our world, we must attribute the cause of 'light' to the brain, and not to the experienced sun. That is, no thing within experience has any causal potency. No more so than Wile E. Coyote's rocket-skates.
I bet you never realised that science was the study of apparent order and apparent causality, did you? Well, now you know - free of charge.
What's wrong with the idea of screwing-off appearances entirely?
That's the finale.
The point is not that the empirical world is a representation of reality. The point is that it is all we have, except for making up shit about higher realities, by means of which you and LI are here to entertain us.
I never did get down to discussing the fullness of 'experience', did I? You short-changed it... and became an atheist.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Surendra Darathy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:49 pm

jamest wrote:I never did get down to discussing the fullness of 'experience', did I?
You never got down to bending any spoons, either.
I bet you never realised that science was the study of apparent order and apparent causality, did you?
It's looking like drama is all you have to go with, unless you really start bending some fucking spoons. Put up or shut up.
You short-changed it... and became an atheist.
You mean, I experienced "drama" and didn't immediately fall on my knees praying? It never occurred to me to do so. This is the old soft-soap about "you might be missing out if you don't buy now!" Hint, James: You're not a stockbroker.

So, in your tidy little universe, "drama" (otherwise known as "histrionics") is evidence of an unseen higher reality. When it's up to bending some spoons, I'll think of it as something besides "drama".

For fifteen hundred years after some guy claimed the world was going to end "real soon, now", nothing changes in the world of woo, except for local aberrations like Joseph Smith. A billion muslims could not care less about Joseph-fucking-Smith, and all of a sudden, along comes JamesT explaining that his internal drama is evidence for god. Holy fuck!
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Little Idiot » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:28 am

Surendra Darathy wrote:
Little Idiot wrote:
When you can account for your own use of the term "physical", we may have something more to talk about.
Beyond the fact that the physical environment is a fact of our experience, what other account could I need?

We do experience it, therefore I am able to use the term and think about it. Whats more, I would be fairly silly not to do so, IMO.

Are we done now?
No, we're not, because "experience" in your so-called "philosophy" is not limited to the physical. You may turn out to be a guy without a philosophy if you're not very careful with the answer to this one. The "physical environment"? What is it? In your pseudo-philosophy, I mean.

You tried to say that the environment is the physical world "external to the body", but then there was all that stuff about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Because, LI, that's really what your pseudo-philosophy is doing here. You don't seem to commit yourself to whether the body is physical or not, depending on who's "experiencing" it. Your pseudo-philosophy has problems in dealing with other people. It's what I would call a wee bit "anti-social".
:funny:
What do you mean by I dont commit myself to saying whether the body is physical?
I cant say it any more clearly than I do; look-

THE BODY IS OBVIOUSLY PHYSICAL

where have I ever said anything that gives the other impression? Link me to say, three quotes that you think show this, and I will explain three misunderstandings of yours.

I HAVE NEVER SAID THE BODY IS NOT PHYSICAL.

The body is a part of the physical world.

try to understand me on this one, Huh?

If you get me on that, I will answer your other, err 'question' about what it means to be physical.
An advanced intellect can consider fairly the merits of an idea when the idea is not its own.
An advanced personality considers the ego to be an ugly thing, and none more so that its own.
An advanced mind grows satiated with experience and starts to wonder 'why?'

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Trolldor » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:12 am

Nobody knows what the hell you mean because you aren't saying anything. Seems to me you're using the Chomskybot.

http://rubberducky.org/cgi-bin/chomsky.pl
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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Surendra Darathy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:22 pm

Little Idiot wrote: The body is a part of the physical world.

try to understand me on this one, Huh?

If you get me on that, I will answer your other, err 'question' about what it means to be physical.
Yes, but this makes no fucking difference to me, since underneath all that you continue to say that the PW is just another kind of (separate) mental experience perpetually being arranged for all the menticles by the Big Mind.

The problem is not that you can't account for the physical world, it's that your god-thingy is infinitely less parsimonious even than the infinitely-awkward Abrahamic god-thingy that zaps the universe into existence and then watches the fall of a material sparrow, as a deterministic fate takes its course to heaven or hell among a bunch of created zombies with pseudo free-will. And for what? It's just a big fucking entertainment for the god-thingy who they claim wanted some company in a lonely existence. He wanted his creatures to get to "know" Him. James is waiting in the, um, wings, to tell us about that one.

Your particular HD-ADD god-thingy is perpetually busy arranging "experience" moment-to-moment. Well, those of us who require a god-thingy may often model it on ourselves. Busy, busy, busy. And as we have seen, you've now spent at least a month here, and historically-recorded months elsewhere, sidling up to this point as your busy little ball-bouncing avatar leaps manically back and forth between fleshy existence and skeletal non-fleshy menticle existence.

What the fuck, man! If you don't understand how ungainly is your reduction of experience to a mentalist charade of simplicity, no one can help you. It's a fucking pantomime of simplicity, rather than actual simplicity. Give it up! And, if you can't give it up, try developing a little respect for your audience, and write your case plainly. Your pantomime of simplicity is so basic that you really could lay it out in a single post. That you would appear to be repeating yourself as you attempt to proselytise the world to your menticle-god-thingy is the cross you will have to bear.
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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by jamest » Wed Mar 24, 2010 12:50 pm

Surendra Darathy wrote:And for what? It's just a big fucking entertainment for the god-thingy who they claim wanted some company in a lonely existence. He wanted his creatures to get to "know" Him. James is waiting in the, um, wings, to tell us about that one.
I am? Nah, not in the mood for schoolyard taunts, today.

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by Surendra Darathy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:10 pm

jamest wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:And for what? It's just a big fucking entertainment for the god-thingy who they claim wanted some company in a lonely existence. He wanted his creatures to get to "know" Him. James is waiting in the, um, wings, to tell us about that one.
I am? Nah, not in the mood for schoolyard taunts, today.
Well, let's just see what you do want to talk about to-day. Is it ®eality™ on the menu again? ®eally-O, Truly-O, 100% pure Grade-A USDA-certified Angus ®eality? Not a speck of cereal! No additives or adulterants! Liquid sunshine! Or moonshine. Pick your poison, James. Now that your shtick has run out of audience, it's all going to seem like schoolyard taunts to you.
I'll get you, my pretty, and your little God, too!

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Re: BM Brain Theory vs. Neuroscience

Post by SpeedOfSound » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:11 pm

jamest wrote:
Surendra Darathy wrote:And for what? It's just a big fucking entertainment for the god-thingy who they claim wanted some company in a lonely existence. He wanted his creatures to get to "know" Him. James is waiting in the, um, wings, to tell us about that one.
I am? Nah, not in the mood for schoolyard taunts, today.
Oh come on. Own up to your true god-like identity.
Favorite quote:
lifegazer says "Now, the only way to proceed to claim that brains create experience, is to believe that real brains exist (we certainly cannot study them). And if a scientist does this, he transcends the barriers of both science and metaphysics."

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