Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Svartalf]

They are taken against their will, "paid" a pittance that would make anybody scoff, and released at the Master's goodwill rather than as per the original contract. and while they are serving, they have no rights at all.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Okay, special definitions. Have fun with that.

BTW, "they have no rights at all" is appallingly ignorant or just plain trolling. Which?

BTW^2, I used to kill people for $247/month. Good pay back then.

[Svartalf]

Did you know that conscripts had even less rights than enlisted military? For instance, people undergoing military service during election years could not vote (even by proxy). (and career military personnel waited a good long time, as they were forbidden to vote until 1945, and ineligible to any office until 1972).

and I have no idea what French military pay was comparative to the times and ranks that you were active, not to mention comparing the benefits (like quality of health care and chow, or pension)... but the allowance given a French conscript would not cover cigarettes if there hadn't been a ration of those, and whores had special military rates because our soldiers just couldn't afford regular prices.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well, that's what they get for being French.

[Cunt]

Many who were conscripted would not have joined or fought on their own. They were forced to fight under threat of - what was the threat again?

They were slaves. If you treated prostitutes the same they would be called 'sex-slaves'. Even if some of them later said they had a nice time.

There were plenty of volunteers, too. I just think it is fair to acknowledge that some of the soldiers in the last hundred years have been forced slaves. If some of what happened to you (Gawdzilla) was truly horrible, then imagine how horrible it must have been for someone who was forced to attend, rather than a volunteer such as yourself.

Also to be clear, so as not to make Ian waste ink, blaming war on the soldier is not as terrible as it sounded the first time I heard George Carlin say it. For instance, Gawdzilla, who should rightly be blamed for the death resulting in a bent finger-bone in a small box somewhere in the USA?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Many who were conscripted would not have joined or fought on their own. They were forced to fight under threat of - what was the threat again?

They were slaves. If you treated prostitutes the same they would be called 'sex-slaves'. Even if some of them later said they had a nice time.

There were plenty of volunteers, too. I just think it is fair to acknowledge that some of the soldiers in the last hundred years have been forced slaves. If some of what happened to you (Gawdzilla) was truly horrible, then imagine how horrible it must have been for someone who was forced to attend, rather than a volunteer such as yourself.

If you want a special definition of slavery, have at it.

Also to be clear, so as not to make Ian waste ink, blaming war on the soldier is not as terrible as it sounded the first time I heard George Carlin say it. For instance, Gawdzilla, who should rightly be blamed for the death resulting in a bent finger-bone in a small box somewhere in the USA?

Meh, he fell down the stairs. Accidents happen.

[Svartalf]

Bug the "special definition" thing... how do you define individuals deprived of their rights and forced into service on threats of punishment (up to death) without rcourse to courts?
The only divergence from regular slavery is that they were not chattels and subject to being sold. (then again, they didn't have the possibility to buy their freedom either).

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Special definition means you are defining something as slavery that is not. I call bullshit.

[Cunt]

It sounds like, somehow, forcing people to soldier for you under threat of economic sanction or death is not the same as slavery. Fair enough, Gawdzilla, but most of the world would consider it slavery.

As to the fellow falling down the stairs, my apologies. I thought it was a problem you had taken care of, rather than an accident and morbid souvenir collecting.

To get away from that example which I misunderstood, try this one. A soldier named Robert Furlong, and his team, killed some enemies during operation anaconda a few years ago (look it up if you aren't famaliar). I blame those deaths on him (and his team). The American soldiers which the (JTF2?) sniper team protected also blamed those snipers for those deaths. They gave them gifts indicating they knew who to blame. Blame isn't always a bad thing, but whether they were doing their job or not, each of them knows they had responsibility for killing some humans. Not the politicians who arranged the battle, not their C.O. who gave them their orders. The team themselves know that they are responsible for killing those people.

I know that the slave armies aren't sold, but are they ever rented to other countries?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

It sounds like, somehow, forcing people to soldier for you under threat of economic sanction or death is not the same as slavery. Fair enough, Gawdzilla, but most of the world would consider it slavery.

I can't help it if people misuse words.

As to the fellow falling down the stairs, my apologies. I thought it was a problem you had taken care of, rather than an accident and morbid souvenir collecting.

That was a joke, Cunt. It took him an appropriate amount of time to die. Pity we didn't have camcorders back then. A .wmv file would have been easier to get past Customs.

To get away from that example which I misunderstood, try this one. A soldier named Robert Furlong, and his team, killed some enemies during operation anaconda a few years ago (look it up if you aren't famaliar). I blame those deaths on him (and his team). The American soldiers which the (JTF2?) sniper team protected also blamed those snipers for those deaths. They gave them gifts indicating they knew who to blame. Blame isn't always a bad thing, but whether they were doing their job or not, each of them knows they had responsibility for killing some humans. Not the politicians who arranged the battle, not their C.O. who gave them their orders. The team themselves know that they are responsible for killing those people.

I know that the slave armies aren't sold, but are they ever rented to other countries?

The idea of slave armies fascinates me. You have to assume that conscription is slavery before you can get slave armies. I don't do that because it's an absurd use of the word.

[Cunt]

What do you call it then, Gawdzilla, when politicians order their military to start taking people against their will and sending them to war? Recruitment? Encouragement?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

What do you call it then, Gawdzilla, when politicians order their military to start taking people against their will and sending them to war? Recruitment? Encouragement?

I call it not slavery. It can be coerced, but the government can do this for a multitude of things. Was Prohibition slavery because we couldn't legally drink?

If you mush the language, you will eventually be talking a language only you can understand.

[Svartalf]

Special definition means you are defining something as slavery that is not. I call bullshit.

I think I'll agree to disagree, but just what is the "normal definition" according to you?

[Svartalf]

What do you call it then, Gawdzilla, when politicians order their military to start taking people against their will and sending them to war? Recruitment? Encouragement?

I call it not slavery. It can be coerced, but the government can do this for a multitude of things. Was Prohibition slavery because we couldn't legally drink?

If you mush the language, you will eventually be talking a language only you can understand.

You know that the folk who built those marvelous Roman roads and aqueducts were mostly state slaves, don't you? (not soldiers, just slaves... though I don't remember that public slaves were liable to be sold in the private market).

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Special definition means you are defining something as slavery that is not. I call bullshit.

I think I'll agree to disagree, but just what is the "normal definition" according to you?

I disagree that conscription is slavery, because I've seen conscripts in several different military establishments. Without an absurdist definition of slavery the issue is just stupid.