Conscription: State sponsored slavery?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thank you, Thumpalumpacus. That's very helpful. I've tried to keep up with the thread, but missed a few posts in the ten pages, because a lot of the world war posts were, I'm afraid, losing my interest, so I started skimming. I have a lot of respect for folks who are willing to serve in the military. I believe that I'm not at all suited for it, and definately do/did have some misconceptions about it. Probably many based on mass media such as movies. And many based on the American attitudes during the Vietnam War. I can tell you this, it drove me CRAZY that anyone could dis' a soldier coming home from that hell. The individuals who fight deserve our every support in healing from the trauma of war. I will never be able to fully understand what combat soldiers experience, and I wish for a day when no one has to do it.

Not a problem. There are a lot of stereotypes floating around regarding servicemen. I know I had quite a few, myself, before I enlisted, that I'd not bothered to question. I try and do that now, to every assumption I have ... it's one reason I come onto boards like this.

And thanks for your well wishes.

You're very welcome. My son's mom has fought a running battle against cancer for the last decade. It's a difficult thing, and you have my respect. It's nothing I'd wish on anyone.

[Svartalf]

It was in France... which may be the reason we invented the 'elastic defence' strategy...

Pretty sure it predates French military prowess..

Uh, I meant that the me officer, you private mentality was alive and well in the French military in 1940 and may have been the reason we were so soundly trounced.

Yeah, I was pointing out that defense-in-depth predates its French iteration.

Defense in depth has nothing to do with the infamous "elastic defence" of 1940... we had bet everything on the Maginot line, and the Germans went around it. We were flat footed, and had neither the troops, not the positions to stem the Panzers' advance.

[Svartalf]

I'll continue laughing, until such time as the less-than-adequately informed have done some fucking time in the trenches.

may you die laughing, the only trench I'll ever visite will be 6feet deep and long.

Most people don't have like the idea of going into combat. I chose it as an immediate way to get away from home.

Being the physical specimen I am, a military career, or even a stint at military service never even was an option to me.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I'll continue laughing, until such time as the less-than-adequately informed have done some fucking time in the trenches.

I'm a 54 year old woman with side effects from cancer treatment. I will never be in the trenches, even if I wanted to. Perhaps instead of laughing, you guys could help us understand. If no one tells us what its really like, how do you expect us to know? Especially since many of us were young decades ago. Of course our information is outdated or flat-out wrong. Chortling into your beer doesn't help the communication here at all.

So, please, someone, explain what its like. Thanks.

I'm just amused by the pontifications of the unlearned, not making fun of anyone in particular. I've heard this kind of thing since 1964, and it never changes.

How do I compress 20 years of military service into one post? The horrors, the happies, the jaw-droppingly beautiful and the jaw-droppingly stupid, the sight of a litter of kittens in a helmet while mom is getting her first taste of descent chow in who knows how long?

And kudos for being a survivor.

[Svartalf]

With respect, I thoroughly disagree.

Maybe I'll articulate that more later, but I'm too tired right now.

Please expand when you're in better shape... but please, don't use heinlein type arguments about earning the franchise and all that...

If only, from experience in my country... people have earned the franchise with minimal service in peace time, others were forced to do combat duty for extremely extended periods to earn the same franchise, while the country was officially at peace... and there were times (and I mean, times before the service was made universal rather than since it was abolished) when you could have the franchise without having to serve, or could pay off somebody else to serve in your place.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think that one of the reasons I joined the military was that the sanest person I knew when I was a kid was a veteran. Gunny #1 was the father I never had, and I suspect he saved my life by having a quiet talk with the sperm-donor. I had been fascinated with the military for many years before that. "The Twentieth Century" was my favorite show when I was seven, especially the WWII episodes. I never regretted joining the military, for a boy from a small town in Indiana it was the ticket to the world, and I rode that express for all it was worth. I've had experiences that I would probably never have had otherwise. (And someday, maybe a million years from now, some archeologist is going to be confused as fuck to find a six pack of American beer entombed in Italian lava. )

[Gawdzilla Sama]

With respect, I thoroughly disagree.

Maybe I'll articulate that more later, but I'm too tired right now.

Please expand when you're in better shape... but please, don't use heinlein type arguments about earning the franchise and all that...

If only, from experience in my country... people have earned the franchise with minimal service in peace time, others were forced to do combat duty for extremely extended periods to earn the same franchise, while the country was officially at peace... and there were times (and I mean, times before the service was made universal rather than since it was abolished) when you could have the franchise without having to serve, or could pay off somebody else to serve in your place.

Why do you disallow Heinlein? Have you read Starship Troopers? If not, I'll send you a copy.

[Svartalf]

Starship Troopers is a heinlein book I've read at least three times.
I disallow the use of such arguments because, although the motivation is technically laudable, practical applications have already been shown to be sorely abused.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Starship Troopers is a heinlein book I've read at least three times.
I disallow the use of such arguments because, although the motivation is technically laudable, practical applications have already been shown to be sorely abused.

Well, that's nice.

[Svartalf]

Fuck... from 1950 on, military service was supposed to be 18 months long (from 1 year mandated in 1946)... yet, in 1954-62, although the country was officially in peace time, and no reservists were mobilized, conscripts were made to serve on the order of 3 years, and put in the line of fire... and I mean ordinary joes who had jobs and families at home and hadn't volunteered for such service or anything... That's a serious breach of equality in earning the franchise for a country where "equality" is part of the national motto. My dad and at least one uncle went there... and my uncle was put at extreme risk, even as servicemen are considered (assigned to intelligence, and sent to spy because my family has... Mediterranean looks)...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Svarty, those are not decisions the military make, that's your politicians in action.

[Svartalf]

Given that this thread is about conscription as slavery, or not, it's always been about politics as opposed to purely military matters.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Given that this thread is about conscription as slavery, or not, it's always been about politics as opposed to purely military matters.

In a weird sort of way, I guess. But military service is not slavery, so the whole idea is just fucking stupid.

[Svartalf]

Given how slave soldiers are historically proven not to be a stupid idea, and how conscripts have actually been effectively enslaved beyond the normal duration and scope of their service, I really don't get how you can say that.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Given how slave soldiers are historically proven not to be a stupid idea, and how conscripts have actually been effectively enslaved beyond the normal duration and scope of their service, I really don't get how you can say that.

Because they are not bought and sold, they are released at the end of their service, they are paid during that service, and they have many rights that a slave doesn't have.