Take my wallet please!

[Tero]

I won't give it to just any 15 year old. I'll yell What do you want? In their face. If they can't communicate their plan to rob me in 5 seconds, I'm out of there. Shoot me.

[pErvinalia]

A sort of spinoff from the old Zimmerman Martin thread. Suppose Martin was the thug and he wants my wallet on the street, fine!


I don't want any Zimmermans to come by and start shooting. It's only money.

THis reminds me of a story a work colleague of mine used to tell about his Dad in South Africa. His Dad was there for business and was getting some money out of an ATM when a mugger came up behind him and stabbed him in the back of the neck with a knife to take his money. Being South Africa, there are a lot of armed citizens around. One passer-by in his car decided to draw down on the mugger and started taking pot shots at him from his car. He ended up shooting my friend's dad in the knee. Doh!

[Seth]

A sort of spinoff from the old Zimmerman Martin thread. Suppose Martin was the thug and he wants my wallet on the street, fine!


I don't want any Zimmermans to come by and start shooting. It's only money. I think the gun enthusiasts got their jollies from the fact that Z was allowed to use his gun. He was defending the community from breaking in where people lost a few laptops and whatever junk that could be easily carried.
...
Let them! It's only junk.
The rant started from my thoughts that stuff is never worth shooting someone for. Arson is different, as lives are at stake, but an empty house, even there it's still all junk. Insure it.

One of my old friends on the internet, lost him a few years back, was really interesting in his philosophy, similar to mine. He thinks he came to it as their house burned down when he was 10. No lives lost.

You still don't get it. Martin was shot not because he was suspicious, he wouldn't have been shot if he had demanded Zimmerman's wallet but was unarmed (although Zimmerman would have been justified in drawing down on him for that), he was shot because he was TRYING TO KILL ZIMMERMAN.

Whatever events lead up to that attempt are completely and utterly irrelevant, because unless Martin was himself facing an imminent deadly threat when he attacked Zimmerman, there is no justification for his attack. Period.

And yeah, it's just stuff, and you aren't actually allowed to shoot people over "just stuff" (except perhaps in Texas), it's the underlying threat of the use of deadly force that comes WITH the attempt to steal that justifies the use of deadly force.

If I have to shoot a street thug who's menacing me with a knife or a gun while demanding my wallet, it has nothing whatever to do with the wallet and everything to do with his potentially lethal threats.

The same is true if he breaks into my house in the middle of the night to steal my TV. The "Castle Doctrine" law in Colorado is NOT about protecting property, in fact the law expressly FORBIDS the use of deadly force to protect property in Colorado (and most other states, Texas being the exception I'm aware of).

That's why the law requires a) an uninvited entry to a residence, b) an intent to commit ANOTHER crime therein other than the uninvited entry (like burglary or rape); and c) the homeowner reasonably believes that the intruder is or is about to use ANY degree of force against ANY occupant of the home, no matter how slight.

You see, it's not about the TV, it's about the safety and security of the people in the home.

[Tero]

Seth:I'm done with Martin. He's buried and dead. Replace the picture with any thug any color.

[Seth]

Seth:I'm done with Martin. He's buried and dead. Replace the picture with any thug any color.

I agree. It doesn't matter what the thug's description, my point remains valid.

[Animavore]

Sorry but I find the OP bullshit. If someone tries mug me (and I was mugged once as a youngster and it shook me pretty badly) I'm going to fuck him up any way I can if I'm in a position that I can. I know my property and money are only 'stuff'. That's not the point to me. The cheek of some arsehole coming into my personal space like that is. They deserve any lesson they get.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

There's also a real danger that showing a punk he has power over you will lead to him testing the limits of that power.

[Tero]

"...coming into my personal space like that is. They deserve any lesson they get."

Go right ahead. Not my problem. Not my civic duty either. I figure two such thugs will kill each other some day, or two young thugs gang up on a older one. In any case most of them do not live past 25.

[Tero]

Sorry if I sound too pessimistic, but I don't see any lessons to the thug as worth my effort. They are no longer teachable, a lost cause. They will cause damage to others as long as they are alive.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

... as long as they are alive.

Easily fixed.

[Coito ergo sum]

It isn't just about the "junk" as you call it.

Olivia Bertalan was home alone with her infant son one morning last August when a man came to her door, knocked, and rang the doorbell. She peered out a window, didn't recognize the man and called police when another man came to her back door.

Bertalan, 21, ran upstairs and locked herself and her son in a bedroom as the second man entered her home, which was in the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated, middle-income neighborhood of 260 townhouses in Sanford, Fla., outside Orlando. Terrified, she and her son cried as the man tried to turn the knob of the door where they hid. Both men ran when police arrived, but not before stealing a laptop and digital camera.

"It was terrible," said Bertalan, who moved from the neighborhood last month after about half a year, because of this and other burglaries. "I'm sure he could hear me in there because my son was crying, and I was crying. ... Who knows what would have happened if the police hadn't been there."

Conversations with several residents, however, suggest that Zimmerman’s calls reflect a wider feeling of concern and distrust in the community. For years, Twin Lakes residents had been on edge—demonstrated by their decision last September to start a neighborhood-watch organization, which was initiated by Zimmerman himself. The burglary of Olivia Bertalan’s home was just one of at least eight reported over the previous 14 months

Three weeks before Martin’s death another Twin Lakes resident arrived home to discover a kitchen window open and a laptop and gold necklaces missing. Two witnesses said they saw a young black man standing nearby, but they did not see the man break into the home, according to a police report. One witness said he believed it was the same man who had stolen his bike. The next day officers responding to a call confronted three black men and one white man on bikes near the neighborhood. The same witnesses identified one of the men as the same man they saw near the burglarized home. The officers found the laptop in the man's backpack.

Last July a rental car was stolen from one townhome along with the car keys, which were inside on a dining room table. The resident awoke in the morning to discover her sliding glass door open. The car was eventually found abandoned. In August a PlayStation and videogames were stolen from another townhome. In September someone vandalized a townhome under construction. In December someone broke into a foreclosed townhome, stopped up a toilet and started the water running. According to a police report, the water flooded the bedroom and caused drywall in the garage to collapse.

Olivia Bertalan said it was George Zimmerman's wife, in fact, who helped her to identify the burglar who stole her laptop. Bertalan didn't know Zimmerman well, but said he was helpful and "sweet" after the crime, inviting her to call them anytime if she felt afraid or needed anything.

Officers eventually identified the person who burglarized Bertalan's home as a neighbor. He was arrested but released because, as Bertalan understood it, he was a minor. Both he and the other man were black, according to the police report.

After the crime, Bertalan said, she was afraid to come home and find things missing. She and her husband got a dog, as advised by police.

"There was definitely a sense of fear in the neighborhood after all of this started happening, and it just kept on happening. It wasn't just a one-time thing. It was every week," she said. "Our next-door neighbor actually said if someone came into his yard he would shoot him. If someone came into his house he would shoot him. Everyone felt afraid and scared."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... oting.html


These kind of things rob people not just of their things, but of their peace of mind. Like Ms. Bertalan, who now is afraid that when she comes home someone will be there robbing the place, and will perhaps get up to additional shenanigans if confronted by a lone woman.... who knows? She gets to live in fear.

A person invades your home, that person is threatening you with far more than just the loss of some "junk."

Moreover, for people who are of limited means, like in Zimmerman's community, which was lower economic class, things like Laptops and other electronics are not inexpensive pieces of junk. They are hard to come by, and represent considerable expenditures as it relates to income. Insurance doesn't help much, as the $1000 laptop you bought last year will generally only net you the replacement cost for that laptop, which now costs $500 if it's available at all, and you have to pay a deductible, which is usually $500 or more.

Each of these burglary reports involves more than the theft of junk. It involves the robbing of people of their safety and security. http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/upload ... eports.pdf and http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/4/25 ... Burglaries

[Coito ergo sum]

Sorry but I find the OP bullshit. If someone tries mug me (and I was mugged once as a youngster and it shook me pretty badly) I'm going to fuck him up any way I can if I'm in a position that I can. I know my property and money are only 'stuff'. That's not the point to me. The cheek of some arsehole coming into my personal space like that is. They deserve any lesson they get.

This, plus 1001.

Grease him.

[laklak]

If I get him in my sights, Boom boom, out go the lights.

[Tero]

The proposed wallet is yours tactic was not proposed as a universal solution. I've seen bums come to a fist fight over the contents of their stolen shopping carts in Berkekey. It only works if your income is over a certain level.

[Seth]

Sorry if I sound too pessimistic, but I don't see any lessons to the thug as worth my effort. They are no longer teachable, a lost cause. They will cause damage to others as long as they are alive.

Which is an excellent reason for them not to be alive.