Selfishness

[hadespussercats]

There can be a real passive aggressive side to selflessness-- the whole martyr thing that people like my MIL specialize in.
"Look at all I do for you. How can you not just do everything the way I'd like, out of gratitude for all I've given up and given over? Well, I'm strong-- I'll carry on. I'll just pour on the guilt and the judgement..."

I would muuuuuch rather deal with someone who's willing to say what they want and make a case for it--- who admits their desires and is willing to work with other people to either make them happen or work out a compromise.

[FBM]

I don't think being concerned primarily for one's best interests excludes being concerned for others best interests. The problem lies in finding a consensus as to what those are.

It's usually not an either-or proposition. Maybe in emergencies. Seems to me that Western society tends to focus too much on the competitive side of nature and tends to ignore the cooperative side.

[macdoc]

ALL uncoerced actions are self interest even if falling on a grenade...the individual acts as they choose.

whether they are prepared to admit it or not.

Both over the top self interest ( wilfull predation ) and over the top self sacrifice tend to be weeded out over time in tribal confines.

If you set up scenarios....say one person has to die to save the rest.....there will be some that volunteer and some that hang back and that is the spectrum of human nature that has served us over time and has been exploited by some.

I despise the term "selfishness" as it's biblical and manipulative - self interest takes many forms and many find personal satisfaction in forgoing their own comforts to help others.
Coercion in that respect tho is odious.....assigning a group ( ie government, ago etc ) to perform acts of kindness in an even handed manner I do not find problematic unless it is abused by those receiving or fails to be even handed.

Treatment of the least favoured is an indicator of societal health...the US is not doing too well on that front, Canada better but not terrific....some of the Nordic nations and Australia put us both to shame.

It's an ethical judgement on the part of each individual in each case in my view how to balance self interest and the interests of others. No one rule can be much guidance.

[Tyrannical]

I don't think civilization is possible without a degree of unselfishness and cooperativeness.

[macdoc]

yup but still do not like the term.....in my view it's an internal transaction .....weighing short and long term benefits to self, others and society. Has to happen in tribal groups.

[rachelbean]

Right on, macdoc

Because of my upbringing I had a very unhealthy sense of guilt over my perceived selfish desires. It took me many years, bad relationships and some counseling just to work out that I have to care for myself. Everyone knows only what they feel. It's very possible to look out for your health and happiness and still be a kind and compassionate person.

And yeah, my mom always said people who didn't have children were very selfish. I could never understand how that worked

[Svartalf]

Stop dithering and sacrifice yourself to raise a generation that might see the LORD's return!

[JimC]

Human history is largely about individuals negotiating the terrain between acting to help oneself, and acting to help one's tribe...

It is, at heart, a dilemma that is forced upon us because we are a self-aware social species - co-operation pays, but so does cheating...

Decisions, decisions...

[Rum]

I'm not sure selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites actually. Personally it makes me feel good to put the needs of my partner before my own, which I sometimes do - often in fact. Does that make me selfless? No, because it makes me feel good!

[JimC]

I'm not sure selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites actually. Personally it makes me feel good to put the needs of my partner before my own, which I sometimes do - often in fact. Does that make me selfless? No, because it makes me feel good!

Is there perhaps an impulse within us to do such actions, and have a "brain reward" surge of pleasure, because, in general, such "altruism" is to our long term benefit?

Such is the cynicism one embraces when infected by the meme for analysing situations in terms of inclusive fitness and natural selection...

Damn you, Darwin and Dawkins!

[Rum]

But it means we get to go to heaven, right?

[Trinity]

There can be a real passive aggressive side to selflessness-- the whole martyr thing that people like my MIL specialize in.
"Look at all I do for you. How can you not just do everything the way I'd like, out of gratitude for all I've given up and given over? Well, I'm strong-- I'll carry on. I'll just pour on the guilt and the judgement..."

I would muuuuuch rather deal with someone who's willing to say what they want and make a case for it--- who admits their desires and is willing to work with other people to either make them happen or work out a compromise.

I actually spent a lot of my last relationship in victim mode, being a martyr, but in my own head. I never laid the guilt trip on him but silently yearned for more appreciation and consideration. Meh, I understand all of the reasons why I was like I was but breaking ingrained habits was just too scary for me. In retrospect, I wish I'd been braver, but then I wouldn't be sat here reflecting and wanting to change those unhelpful aspects of my character. In some ways, I could have been called the selfish one because I was unable and unwilling on an unconscious level, to be brave enough to stand up for myself and face possible but probably imagined rejection.

[macdoc]

Rum wrote:I'm not sure selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites actually. Personally it makes me feel good to put the needs of my partner before my own, which I sometimes do - often in fact. Does that make me selfless? No, because it makes me feel good!

exactly.

[hadespussercats]

Right on, macdoc

Because of my upbringing I had a very unhealthy sense of guilt over my perceived selfish desires. It took me many years, bad relationships and some counseling just to work out that I have to care for myself. Everyone knows only what they feel. It's very possible to look out for your health and happiness and still be a kind and compassionate person.

And yeah, my mom always said people who didn't have children were very selfish. I could never understand how that worked

Yeah. How dare you keep an open schedule for working with and/or addressing the needs of people who might not be part of your immediate family? How selfish of you not to create more people who will use up scarce resources, instead of focusing on all the people already alive. How selfish to maybe realize you only have so much time, and choose to devote that time to something other than extending your phenotype (as it were.)

[hadespussercats]

There can be a real passive aggressive side to selflessness-- the whole martyr thing that people like my MIL specialize in.
"Look at all I do for you. How can you not just do everything the way I'd like, out of gratitude for all I've given up and given over? Well, I'm strong-- I'll carry on. I'll just pour on the guilt and the judgement..."

I would muuuuuch rather deal with someone who's willing to say what they want and make a case for it--- who admits their desires and is willing to work with other people to either make them happen or work out a compromise.

I actually spent a lot of my last relationship in victim mode, being a martyr, but in my own head. I never laid the guilt trip on him but silently yearned for more appreciation and consideration. Meh, I understand all of the reasons why I was like I was but breaking ingrained habits was just too scary for me. In retrospect, I wish I'd been braver, but then I wouldn't be sat here reflecting and wanting to change those unhelpful aspects of my character. In some ways, I could have been called the selfish one because I was unable and unwilling on an unconscious level, to be brave enough to stand up for myself and face possible but probably imagined rejection.

I don't think it's fair to you to be so black and white in terms of who was selfish and who wasn't. There's nothing wrong with wanting the people who claim to love you to recognize you and make you feel appreciated.

It is easier for them to do that if you tell them when they aren't. That's true. But it can be scary to put yourself out there, and risk rejection full-on rather than just accepting it without fully acknowledging it.

I hope you find people who treasure all the best in you.

(edited for clarity.)