Can i buy you a coffee?

[Coito ergo sum]

I think it's a pretty good article and, while not a perfect analogy, it does give some insight in to a world I'm unfamiliar with.

I would disagree with CES's opinion that a woman could just give the coffee guy a polite "no" and that would be the end of it. There will always be an asshole who gets upset because his offer is refused, leading to verbal abuse or worse - the fact that that might happen (shades of Schrodinger trigger warning...) is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable. There are times, places, situations, resources and venues for hooking up with the opposite sex - unless there is a blatant come-on in "regular" situations men and women should back off each other.

(Hey, look at this everybody! Atheism Plus stuff without the devastation, whining, crying, sobbing, ad homs, vitriol, bile, spite, abuse and hatred. )

What are those places? If you mean pubs/clubs or other "traditional" places for hooking up, they're not really the kind of places people will necessarily find a meaningful relationship. And.... what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?

This is very much my question, too. I would've thought a coffee shop WAS one of those places. Couches/chairs, coffee tables -- people sit for hours at a time, lounging, hanging out, talking among themselves. I mean - it's a nice place to meet people, I thought. I can think of 2 women I met at a coffee shop and dated thereafter, and one time I hooked up with the female barrista at the coffee shop. I didn't realize I had harassed them.

[Bella Fortuna]

Hell, I hang out in such places in the hopes of being offered a coffee, because I'm too cheap to fork over for those ridiculously expensive drinks!


*I don't really

[Pappa]

I can think of 2 women I met at a coffee shop and dated thereafter, and one time I hooked up with the female barrista at the coffee shop. I didn't realize I had harassed them.

Misogynistic bastard!

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ten second course on what is considered harassment:

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

Everything.

[Coito ergo sum]

I can think of 2 women I met at a coffee shop and dated thereafter, and one time I hooked up with the female barrista at the coffee shop. I didn't realize I had harassed them.

Misogynistic bastard!

They seemed to enjoy my witty banter....who knew that I was harassing them? And, I had sex with two out of the three....is that rape?

[Pappa]

I can think of 2 women I met at a coffee shop and dated thereafter, and one time I hooked up with the female barrista at the coffee shop. I didn't realize I had harassed them.

Misogynistic bastard!

They seemed to enjoy my witty banter....who knew that I was harassing them? And, I had sex with two out of the three....is that rape?

Yes. Didn't you realise they felt unable to say "I'm not interested" and went through with the sex/relationship anyway? Guys, don't do that!

[devogue]

A coffee house, though, is a social gathering place, only without alcohol. People go there to sit down and even talk with each other, and it is definitely a place where people who don't know each other strike up conversations.

Really? I've been out and about and stopped in a coffee shop for a quick cuppa and to read the paper. I don't want to socialise, I don't want a conversation - I just want a nice cup of coffee and a bit of peace to read my paper.

While certainly there is a chance a man will become irate if his offer of coffee is refused (or offer of any introduction), I doubt that is anything but a rarity.

And that chance (as I put it "might happen") is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable as she rejects his approach. She should be left alone to drink her coffee and read her paper, as I would want to be left alone to drink my coffee and read my paper.

And, the same would be the case anywhere, even in "singles bars," and such. Men have been known to become upset at being rebuffed, and so have women. If it is the "some guy might get pissed off" rationale for "backing off", then the rule would be as applicable anywhere as it is in a coffee shop.

A woman's presence in a "singles bar" suggests that she is motivated to hit it off with someone - she is in effect standing up to the line and saying "I am inviting attention and interest". While there is still the issue of dealing with rebuffed men who act like assholes, she cannot complain that an approach has been made because the situation and setting obviously encourages and justifies such approaches.

Sitting quietly in a coffee bar with a coffee and a book (or whatever) does not justify any approach.

And, I'm still not following it, even with the explanation you're giving Dev. From your perspective of agreeing with the article, are you suggesting that if a man is single and heads down to the Caribou Coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon to kill some time, and he sees a woman that he fancies sitting there reading a book or magazine or something, that it is improper for him to open a conversation by saying, "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" Or, what about "Hello, my name is ______...." and strike up a conversation? Is this "harassment?" Is this improper?

Of course there are all kinds of nuances and subtleties in human behaviour, but let's say that the woman in this scenario hasn't looked at the man, smiled at the man, winked at the man, licked her lips or whatever at the man - she hasn't even noticed the man. That's a perfectly likely, valid scenario, isn't it?

So the woman is reading her book (perhaps studying) or magazine (taking the single, precious, free 20 minutes in her entire day) while sipping her coffee. She has given absolutely no signal, no invitation to anyone to impinge on her space or time. But the man is just "killing time" - he's a good bloke, a nice fellow, but although he sees her reading and she evidently looks quite content, he decides to ignore her contentment and her choice and he impinges upon her right to privacy and her own personal enjoyment. He says "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" He hasn't harassed her, abused her, mocked her - he has been perfectly pleasant - but he has also impinged upon her right to privacy, and asserted his own selfish desire over the woman's possible desire for peace and quiet.

Now, imagine our man had read the article you linked to before going to the cafe - he might ask himself.."shit, how many other blokes have done the same thing?...how many others have tried to buy her coffee?...how many times has she had to say no?...I wonder if she has been called an ungrateful bitch, or a snooty fucker...too good for me, huh?...even if that's just happened once, that would have hurt, right?...so if I chip in as Mister 138 to ask and she says no, then she has that moment of fear waiting for possible vitriol...then she's going to feel awkward (even if I don't) sitting a few seats away from me in silence...hurriedly drinking her coffee just to get the fuck out of an awkward situation that I created..."

That's why I think it's good to raise consciousness about this sort of thing - we don't have to walk around in a paranoid, "potential rapist", festering shell of angst and social whalebone corsets, but just a wee bit more empathy, a wee bit more understanding of how our own desires might impinge on the desires of others might be worth considering.

I would think a coffee shop is the "time and place" for impromptu introductions. If not there, where? The supermarket? Bookstore? Are people limited to bars in order to start conversations? And, if bars are o.k., then why not a coffee shop (which is just a bar that doesn't serve alcohol).

The supermarket, bookstore, bar or coffeshop are all fine as long as the situation and time is right - in the coffeeshop it could be a couple of men on a sofa and two women opposite all chilling out and sparks fly. I know that sounds completely unempirical (because it is), but people hit it off all the time - mutual conversations begin mutually - two people are good to talk, so they do - it might just be friendly, a quick word of apology after accidentally bumping in to someone in a bar might lead to a more interesting conversation in a church hall - who knows? There are fluid, intricate, nuanced ways of communicating and interacting - the one on one "can I buy you a coffee?" scenario is as blunt as it gets; yeah it might work the odd time, but more often than not it will lead to minor embarrassment or full on abuse.

I'm glad you chimed in Dev, because I wasn't sure if anyone would pick up that side of the issue, and I am very interested to see how you're thinking this through, because, honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the article. I am shocked that according to this, if I introduce myself to a woman in a coffee shop, I'm harassing her.

As I said, it's not harassment - it's impinging on privacy, and creating possible unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain.

[devogue]

what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?

Yes, they should - they know nothing about the person apart from their appearance so their notion that they might be "the one" is built on nothing, especially if there is absolutely no signal from that person that they want to be approached.

[Audley Strange]

See here's what I think. I think it's lies. I think in fact that these people who complain about such are equivalent to the guys who I used to work with who had to tell you, just fucking had to tell you there bollocks sex stories. "Oh I got so wasted on Friday night, woke up in bed with two japanese twins!" When you know fine well they got turfed out the pub early for acting like a cunt then went home and cried themselves to sleep masturbating to reruns of "The Sweeney."

I'm sure you've met such pricks. They're the kind of tit who says something inappropriate for no reason and expects everyone to agree. "Oh look at her doubled over, I'd double her over, am I right?" at which everyone is expected to go "heh yeah right, you're cool."

This is the same. "OMG like all these guys won't stop looking at my boobs and asking me out, I'm ever so popular.It's terrible!"

It's the sad daydreaming of sexually frustrated adolescents.

[Pappa]

what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?

Yes, they should - they know nothing about the person apart from their appearance so their notion that they might be "the one" is built on nothing, especially if there is absolutely no signal from that person that they want to be approached.

Not necessarily. They could have overheard them talking about Baroque music, robot sumo, cake decorating, guinea pig care or what semen tastes like and thought, "This person sounds really interesting, I want to get to know them."

[Audley Strange]

I think I see what Dev's saying.

Better a million miserable shrews die lonely virgins than a single man be accused of harassment unnecessarily.

[Coito ergo sum]

A coffee house, though, is a social gathering place, only without alcohol. People go there to sit down and even talk with each other, and it is definitely a place where people who don't know each other strike up conversations.

Really? I've been out and about and stopped in a coffee shop for a quick cuppa and to read the paper. I don't want to socialise, I don't want a conversation - I just want a nice cup of coffee and a bit of peace to read my paper.

Sure, some people want that. Other people also want to socialize. Some people want one thing on one day, and another thing on another day. Single people who would like to meet someone tend to be more open to the socializing whereas folks who aren't in the market for a date may be more likely to just want to sit by themselves.

While certainly there is a chance a man will become irate if his offer of coffee is refused (or offer of any introduction), I doubt that is anything but a rarity.

And that chance (as I put it "might happen") is enough to make a woman unnecessarily nervous and uncomfortable as she rejects his approach. She should be left alone to drink her coffee and read her paper, as I would want to be left alone to drink my coffee and read my paper.

Some people want that in bars, too. Where are the appropriate places?

And, the same would be the case anywhere, even in "singles bars," and such. Men have been known to become upset at being rebuffed, and so have women. If it is the "some guy might get pissed off" rationale for "backing off", then the rule would be as applicable anywhere as it is in a coffee shop.

A woman's presence in a "singles bar" suggests that she is motivated to hit it off with someone - she is in effect standing up to the line and saying "I am inviting attention and interest". While there is still the issue of dealing with rebuffed men who act like assholes, she cannot complain that an approach has been made because the situation and setting obviously encourages and justifies such approaches.

A singles bar implies a "pick up" joint -- but, what about just a regular town bar. Is she implying, by being there, that she is open to conversation?

I still don't get why a coffee shop, which is a social place, is not a place where it is o.k.to say hi. Note, that in the examples given in the article -- no pickups were involved. It was just "can I buy you a cup of coffee" and then the offeror was going to talk about jesus and had to be sent packing. Is it really something that is verboten to strike up conversations in public places?

Sitting quietly in a coffee bar with a coffee and a book (or whatever) does not justify any approach.

ANY approach? Really? Holy cow. I met a nice girl some years back in a bookstore. She was reading a book and i walked up and said hi. We talked for a while and she gave me her phone number. We went out on some dates. Had she told me "no" would I have done something wrong? Did I do something wrong whether the answer was yes or no?

And, I'm still not following it, even with the explanation you're giving Dev. From your perspective of agreeing with the article, are you suggesting that if a man is single and heads down to the Caribou Coffee shop on a Saturday afternoon to kill some time, and he sees a woman that he fancies sitting there reading a book or magazine or something, that it is improper for him to open a conversation by saying, "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" Or, what about "Hello, my name is ______...." and strike up a conversation? Is this "harassment?" Is this improper?

Of course there are all kinds of nuances and subtleties in human behaviour, but let's say that the woman in this scenario hasn't looked at the man, smiled at the man, winked at the man, licked her lips or whatever at the man - she hasn't even noticed the man. That's a perfectly likely, valid scenario, isn't it?

So the woman is reading her book (perhaps studying) or magazine (taking the single, precious, free 20 minutes in her entire day) while sipping her coffee. She has given absolutely no signal, no invitation to anyone to impinge on her space or time. But the man is just "killing time" - he's a good bloke, a nice fellow, but although he sees her reading and she evidently looks quite content, he decides to ignore her contentment and her choice and he impinges upon her right to privacy and her own personal enjoyment. He says "excuse me, but I wonder if I could buy you a cup of coffee?" He hasn't harassed her, abused her, mocked her - he has been perfectly pleasant - but he has also impinged upon her right to privacy, and asserted his own selfish desire over the woman's possible desire for peace and quiet.

I find this rather puzzling. She's not in private. She is in a coffee shop, and you're suggesting that her "right to privacy" has been invaded here? We have a right to privacy in a public place not to have people talk to us? i have never heard of that convention, not in the least.

And, as for the gestures or complexities, like lip licking, that may be involved -- that is why I left that out -- because the hypothetical was to be just as you described. She did nothing to "invite" me over. But, to flesh out the complexities -- they are far more often misinterpreted than anything else. What is the invite? If she had looked up, seen me looking at her and smiled, would that be an "invitation" or is she just being nice? Or, was that just a nervous smile, and she is actually now worried that I've been looking at her, waiting for some sign, which I've now misinterpreted as an invite?

Now, imagine our man had read the article you linked to before going to the cafe - he might ask himself.."shit, how many other blokes have done the same thing?...how many others have tried to buy her coffee?...how many times has she had to say no?...I wonder if she has been called an ungrateful bitch, or a snooty fucker...too good for me, huh?...even if that's just happened once, that would have hurt, right?...so if I chip in as Mister 138 to ask and she says no, then she has that moment of fear waiting for possible vitriol...then she's going to feel awkward (even if I don't) sitting a few seats away from me in silence...hurriedly drinking her coffee just to get the fuck out of an awkward situation that I created..."

Wow -- I can't imagine that people can't talk to each other. You've turned an invite to sit and talk into an invasion of privacy. When did this happen to our culture? I'm really puzzled at this....

I was at a local pub a few weeks back with a friend. I am married now, and I'm old, somewhat out of shape. We were sitting there, and it was like an outdoor cafe, not a "singles bar" at all, just a brew pub - it allowed cigar smoking around outdoor seating, and we were just having a few pints and enjoying some guy time out away from the wives. While we were sitting there, a young woman, late 20s, came up and introduced herself and we struck up a conversation. She sat down next to me and we were chatting and it became obvious that she was "interested." Neither one of us had looked at her or even known she was in the bar. Improper? She came up to (me, specifically, because she sat next to me and she and I had the bulk of the conversation). Had I done the same to her and a friend of hers sitting there, that would have been improper? I would have invaded their privacy? Was my privacy invaded?

That's why I think it's good to raise consciousness about this sort of thing - we don't have to walk around in a paranoid, "potential rapist", festering shell of angst and social whalebone corsets, but just a wee bit more empathy, a wee bit more understanding of how our own desires might impinge on the desires of others might be worth considering.

Nothing in the situation I presented, and nothing in the situation presented in the article, indicated a lack of empathy, did it? How so? It wasn't as if the hypotheticals (although my brew pub story is actually true) involved a woman who for all appearances wanted to be left alone or said "no" and then had the guy keep on her.

You're suggestion is that if a woman is sitting at Starbucks on one of the comfy chairs, and a guy who is also in Starbucks and fancies her, that it is improper for him to talk to her, even politely, unless she licks her lips at him or does something else that indicates interest? I find this to be completely alien -- there have been many times in my life where I've found myself talking to women, in conversations that I initiated, where I didn't even have the intent to "hook up" or "pick up" on them. I was just hanging out and so were they.

It seems that this article creates a presumption that we can't even be friendly with each other.

I would think a coffee shop is the "time and place" for impromptu introductions. If not there, where? The supermarket? Bookstore? Are people limited to bars in order to start conversations? And, if bars are o.k., then why not a coffee shop (which is just a bar that doesn't serve alcohol).

The supermarket, bookstore, bar or coffeshop are all fine as long as the situation and time is right

That can't effectively be known in advance. Humans are really bad at reading signals. And, you may think a woman smiled at you and is "hot to trot" and she may have merely thought of something funny.

- in the coffeeshop it could be a couple of men on a sofa and two women opposite all chilling out and sparks fly. I know that sounds completely unempirical (because it is), but people hit it off all the time - mutual conversations begin mutually - two people are good to talk, so they do -

That is one way, for sure. Another is that a person says "hi, my name is ______"

it might just be friendly, a quick word of apology after accidentally bumping in to someone in a bar might lead to a more interesting conversation in a church hall - who knows? There are fluid, intricate, nuanced ways of communicating and interacting - the one on one "can I buy you a coffee?" scenario is as blunt as it gets; yeah it might work the odd time, but more often than not it will lead to minor embarrassment or full on abuse.

I don't agree with your distinction. Of course there are gradations of nuance, and all sorts of things can happen. Sometimes someone just throws out a comment, and the other person latches on to it and a conversation starts. Like you could be at the coffee shop and something interesting comes on the t.v. and the guy might say, "wow! did you see that?" And, then a conversation ensues. But, he still committed the same "invasion of privacy" as if he asked her if he could buy her a coffee. She would still have had the same "right" to be left unapproached.

I'm glad you chimed in Dev, because I wasn't sure if anyone would pick up that side of the issue, and I am very interested to see how you're thinking this through, because, honestly, I'm dumbfounded by the article. I am shocked that according to this, if I introduce myself to a woman in a coffee shop, I'm harassing her.

As I said, it's not harassment - it's impinging on privacy, and creating possible unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain.

I used to think I was crazy for thinking that our culture had gotten really soft and almost silly with political correctness. The idea that asking a woman (or a man) if one could buy them a cup of coffee would be an invasion of privacy or create unnecessary tension, embarrassment and strain, is something I'll have to think on for a while. It makes no sense to me.

The article, of course, did say that it was harassment -- it was harassment, per the article, because supposedly women are subjected to this all the time and they hate it. But, I definitely don't hold you to the article, as you are of course entitled to your own take on it.

[Coito ergo sum]

what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?

Yes, they should - they know nothing about the person apart from their appearance so their notion that they might be "the one" is built on nothing, especially if there is absolutely no signal from that person that they want to be approached.

Not necessarily. They could have overheard them talking about Baroque music, robot sumo, cake decorating, guinea pig care or what semen tastes like and thought, "This person sounds really interesting, I want to get to know them."

Or, it may not be a pick-up. Some people, me being one, like other people and like to meet them. She Who Must Be Obeyed never ceases to be entertained by my tendency to make friends wherever I go. I think the idea that these coffee invites always have to mean that the woman has to commit to a possible relationship, or that sex is always involved, is alien to me. And, the idea that women are so overawed by this sort of thing is amazing to me -- I think we're dealing with a small minority of women who shudder at the thought of being spoken to or who are really afraid to say no to a coffee offer. I mean -- the vast majority of women I know, I think, know that you say "yes" to to the coffee/drink/whatever, if you want to continue a conversation and you say "no" if you aren't interested.

[Coito ergo sum]

what's a person to do if they see someone in Starbucks that, for whatever reason, they think might just be "the one"? Should they walk away and possibly forever regret their inaction?

Yes, they should - they know nothing about the person apart from their appearance so their notion that they might be "the one" is built on nothing, especially if there is absolutely no signal from that person that they want to be approached.

Whatever happened to just being friendly?

Are people not friendly over there? I read Animavore's post earlier today where he said "American women are more forward" or something to that effect. And, I was out and about with an Brit friend a while back who said the same thing. Maybe it's just more common to be friendly over here in the states? I mean -- the idea of talking to a stranger doesn't seem to me like invasion of privacy -- maybe it's a cultural distinction?

[devogue]

Hey CES - up to my eyes this morning doing research for Mrs Dev's postgrad - will respond this evening!