How do you feel about hedonism?

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by FBM » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:21 am

apophenia wrote:As often the case, the devil is in the details. What you mean by hedonism matters, as, like atheism, it has been redefined into the ground by its critics less than exposited by its friends. Epicurus advocated a thoroughgoing hedonism, and his thoughts on the matter have been repeatedly misinterpreted, misrepresented and maligned throughout history. When you take into account that his views have been misrepresented by his critics, their criticisms of Epicurean hedonism become nothing but strawman arguments — the attempt to refute a position the man himself never advocated.
"What is more, urged Epicurus, life is full of sweetness. We might as well enjoy it; we might as well really make an art of appreciating pleasure. Later his doctrine came to be synonymous with sensualist hedonism, which is why the adjective epicurean has that connotation today. But delicate food, drink, and the pleasures of the flesh are not quite what he had in mind. What Epicurus really encouraged was a joyous cultivation of knowledge and friendships. He did write about the delight of food and drink, but he meant learning to experience fully the pleasure of eating even rough bread and water as well as other things; the idea is that you cultivate yourself more than the food."

Doubt: A History, Jennifer M. Hecht
Declare your borders, sir. I will not enter into a land that has none only to become the property of the sons of Liu Bang.

Exactly, apophenia. The sort of hedonistic calculus prescribed by Epicurus was one of moderation, not extreme indulgence, as the modern vernacular connotes.
d. The Virtues

Epicurus’ hedonism was widely denounced in the ancient world as undermining traditional morality. Epicurus, however, insists that courage, moderation, and the other virtues are needed in order to attain happiness. However, the virtues for Epicurus are all purely instrumental goods–that is, they are valuable solely for the sake of the happiness that they can bring oneself, not for their own sake. Epicurus says that all of the virtues are ultimately forms of prudence, of calculating what is in one’s own best interest. In this, Epicurus goes against the majority of Greek ethical theorists, such as the Stoics, who identify happiness with virtue, and Aristotle, who identifies happiness with a life of virtuous activity. Epicurus thinks that natural science and philosophy itself also are instrumental goods. Natural science is needed in order to give mechanistic explanations of natural phenomena and thus dispel the fear of the gods, while philosophy helps to show us the natural limits of our desires and to dispel the fear of death.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/epicur/#SH5a

Emphasis mine.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
maiforpeace
Account Suspended at Member's Request
Posts: 15726
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:41 am
Location: under the redwood trees

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:28 am

How do I feel about hedonism? Well, I sure like how being hedonistic makes me feel. :fall:

Yeah baby, right there, ohhh, yeah I like it, deep and.... :lips: :lips:
Atheists have always argued that this world is all that we have, and that our duty is to one another to make the very most and best of it. ~Christopher Hitchens~
Image
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3534/379 ... 3be9_o.jpg[/imgc]

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Robert_S » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:33 am

I feel pretty good about it.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Drewish » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:34 am

Okay so let's put out 4 different forms of hedonism:

1) Instant gratification is king. Who knows if I'll live to see tomorrow anyways? If other people get hurt, so be it. Sometimes my happiness means that other people won't be. That's just how life is.

2) Instant gratification is king. Who knows if I'll live to see tomorrow anyways? Just so long as I don't hurt anyone else. After all, they should be free to pursue their pleasures too.

3) Real happiness sometimes means forgoing immediate pleasure. Delayed gratification is key to achieving the best gratification. If other people get hurt, so be it. Sometimes my happiness means that other people won't be. That's just how life is.

4) Real happiness sometimes means forgoing immediate pleasure. Delayed gratification is key to achieving the best gratification. Just so long as I don't hurt anyone else. After all, they should be free to pursue their pleasures too.

Which of these (if any) are you okay with, live by, and such?
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Robert_S » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:40 am

Yeah, those! :tup:

:hehe:
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
maiforpeace
Account Suspended at Member's Request
Posts: 15726
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:41 am
Location: under the redwood trees

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:57 am

Meh...one and three don't work for me...but the other two do, often, and simultaneously if possible. :naughty:
Atheists have always argued that this world is all that we have, and that our duty is to one another to make the very most and best of it. ~Christopher Hitchens~
Image
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3534/379 ... 3be9_o.jpg[/imgc]

User avatar
Audley Strange
"I blame the victim"
Posts: 7485
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:00 pm
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Audley Strange » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:45 am

Yeah none of them apply to me. I'd say "it is fundamentally important to me that my enjoyment outweighs my labour and my suffering and thus is something to should be pursued but only as far is it becomes neither work nor suffering to indulge in."
"What started as a legitimate effort by the townspeople of Salem to identify, capture and kill those who did Satan's bidding quickly deteriorated into a witch hunt" Army Man

User avatar
Xamonas Chegwé
Bouncer
Bouncer
Posts: 50939
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:23 pm
About me: I have prehensile eyebrows.
I speak 9 languages fluently, one of which other people can also speak.
When backed into a corner, I fit perfectly - having a right-angled arse.
Location: Nottingham UK
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:17 am

I have experimented vigorously with hedonism for most of my life and I have come to this conclusion:

It is far too tiring and strenuous for an entire lifetime but quite possibly the best way to spend a long weekend that is known in the observable universe. :tea:
A book is a version of the world. If you do not like it, ignore it; or offer your own version in return.
Salman Rushdie
You talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic.
House MD
Who needs a meaning anyway, I'd settle anyday for a very fine view.
Sandy Denny
This is the wrong forum for bluffing :nono:
Paco
Yes, yes. But first I need to show you this venomous fish!
Calilasseia
I think we should do whatever Pawiz wants.
Twoflower
Bella squats momentarily then waddles on still peeing, like a horse
Millefleur

User avatar
apophenia
IN DAMNATIO MEMORIAE
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 7:41 am
About me: A bird without a feather, a gull without a sea, a flock without a shore.
Location: Farther. Always farther.
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by apophenia » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:54 am

"Hinduism does not suggest that everyone drop his or her work and go live in the forest. In this period, only male Brahmans were invited, for one thing. But more fundamentally, no one is supposed to proceed toward enlightenment until he or she wants to. The idea is that people will want to on their own because, eventually, nothing else will satisfy. First of all, the desire for physical pleasure, once indulged, does not really bring happiness. To refuse one's desire may be more repression than transcendence, but many who do indulge get bored. When this happens, people often move on to seek achievement. As a goal, achievement is a step up from hedonism, because it is communally directed — to be successful is to be valued and lauded by at least some part of the community — but the project is still rather ego-oriented. Still, Hinduism suggests that we indulge this desire so long as it satisfies. Once we grow weary of physical pleasures and tired by accolades and honors, Hinduism recommends that the next stage of life is to leave all this behind and seek internal happiness and, eventually, release.

To obtain that happiness, four major techniques, four yogas, were devised. One of the most fascinating aspects of the yogas is that they reflect the belief that people come in great varieties, and thus need various paths, yet are all capable of reaching the same truth. The jnana yoga is the path through knowledge. For people who live through the intellect, the best path to truth is to think about the real nature of one's self, to learn that a more real self lies somehow behind the noisy surface-self, and to spend time coming to know this deeply. There are thinking exercises to help achieve this .... This suggests a conviction that there is something behind the personality ... Hindu philosophy suggests that if we want to know reality better, we need to practice seeing outside ourselves, perhaps starting by thinking of ourselves in the third person, from a birds-eye view ... This jnana yoga is supposed to be the shortest path to truth, but also the steepest. It's best for people whose minds tend in that direction anyway.

Then there is bhakti yoga, the yoga for those more invested in emotion than thought. Bhakti yoga is about love. Becoming one with everything might be seen as a journey in two directions: forgetting the self and embracing the whole. The bhakti concentrates on the embracing. It is a common Hindu idea that those on the bhakti path do not want to become one with all truth and reality, because then there would be nothing outside themselves to love! In the words of a Hindu classic: they want to taste sugar, they don't want to be sugar. Bhakti explicitly advises the novice to choose a god image to worship. The novice chooses this god image based on what kind of love he or she wants to express in worship..."
This is possibly the most direct path to understanding why I worship "She who destroys," but not necessarily a complete or accurate one. This path, known in Shaktism as Dakshinamargis, otherwise known as the right-hand path, is not my only or even primary path. As many can likely guess, there is a strong element of jnana yoga here as well. This comes, both from temperament, and from being steeped in the religious and philosophical traditions of China, a strange melange of multiple influences, not the least of which was the Madhyamaka school of Buddhism. For better or worse, this strain of Buddhism stressed the teachings of the prajnaparamitra sutras, the wisdom sutras, almost to the exclusion of any others, a lopsided approach which effectively reduced the Buddha's eightfold path to one of enlightenment through knowledge. This trend reaches its epitomy in Zen Buddhism, in which the only way to approach enlightenment is to experience it first hand, to know it in the immediate here and now, mostly by engaging in practices designed to provoke such knowing. Thus, my Taoism and my Hinduism are greatly informed by intellectualism. For all his faults, perhaps Schneibster said it best: I'm complicated.
"...The third, karma yoga, is the path to truth through work — through staying in the world — and karma yoga can be performed through either of the first two yogas: jnana or bhakti, knowledge or devoted love. The secret of getting to enlightenment while working is to do the work for its own sake, with no thought of its results or benefit. One can work for the sake of the work and thereby move one's attention away from the planning, greedy, false self or one can work for the sake of a god image, offering up one's labor in adoration, and therefore move one's attention away from the planning, greedy, false self. Either way, it takes years of intense concentration, but one eventually learns to let go, and see other people, and the world, in a stunningly new way....

...The final yoga is the "royal road to reintegration," raja (royal) yoga, and it is understood as the most empirical of the four. Practitioners of raja yoga essentially experiment on themselves, trying to induce the state that will help them to come to truth, to see reality. Solitude and subsistence living were common approaches toward enlightenment; this was more. Raja is a varied, curious, and intense approach to finding altered states and shaking free the true self The basic rules are to abstain from lying, injury, stealing, sensuality, and greed, and to aim for cleanliness, contentment, self-control, studiousness, and contemplation — but that is just to get the most common difficulties of life out of the way. From here, one can begin the training of postures, fasting, and controlled breathing that have helped others in their quests. Some of these techniques are purposefully excruciating. Raja is an aggressive approach to pulling the mind out of its ordinary, repetitive somersaults of thought. Buddhism was to borrow a great deal from this yoga, although with a dramatic new twist."


Doubt: A History, Jennifer M. Hecht
(Note: Despite being a devotee for many years, I am a novice in my practices and my knowledge of Hinduism overall. I don't vouch for the accuracy or validity of Ms. Hecht's interpretation, because, frankly, I don't know enough.)


Image

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Atheist-Lite » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:56 am

Hedonism? I can take it or leave it. :smoke:
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

User avatar
hadespussercats
I've come for your pants.
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 am
About me: Looks pretty good, coming out of the back of his neck like that.
Location: Gotham
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by hadespussercats » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:07 am

I've heard it said the the film "Groundhog Day" is actually a nice illustration of certain Hindu ideas. He has endless lives, and there are no consequences to any of his actions except in how they shape his mood, his knowledge, his sense of self. So at first he's reckless, gets drunk, gets laid, eats whatever he wants-- "I don't even have to floss."

Then he starts to find those pursuits empty, so he tries to kill himself. But he can't.

So he finds guidance, teachers (Andy MacDowell, the piano teacher, the books he uses to learn French, etc., etc.) and tries to become more adept. And he starts to help people.

And in the end, when he's achieved mastery over that one day, that one life, he's released. And it's a blessing to finally be released-- not something sad or painful. He's completely come to terms with the nature of his existence, and gone beyond using it or fighting it. And that's why in the end he can move on.

I don't know. Maybe this is crap. I'm no expert on Hinduism. But I like that movie, and I think it's a nice idea.
The green careening planet
spins blindly in the dark
so close to annihilation.

Listen. No one listens. Meow.

User avatar
Clinton Huxley
19th century monkeybitch.
Posts: 23739
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:34 pm
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:23 am

I'd rather have a cup of tea. And maybe a digestive biscuit.
"I grow old … I grow old …
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled"

AND MERRY XMAS TO ONE AND All!

Imagehttp://25kv.co.uk/date_counter.php?date ... 20counting!!![/img-sig]

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:27 am

cup of tea? digestive? that may not be as over the top as drug fuelled orgies with teenage models, but it's still hedonistic, alright.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by JimC » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:42 am

What is the opposite of hedonism?
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41035
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: How do you feel about hedonism?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:44 am

I hesitate between stoicism and masochism.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests