How Not to Talk to Your Kids.

[floppit]

Total agreement from me! It makes praise flaccid to give it for each and every action, it makes kids flaccid not to experience the visceral reality of both failure and success. Christ, I even laugh at Freya, and bugger me, guess what - she laughs back!

I like this author who writes constantly about whether children learn to see the world of ability as talents (given) or skills (learned).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_Dweck

Sometimes, when Munch has flunked a new project I can be heard praising her from the roof tops, not for the 'thing' but the way she tackled trying to learn, when I see her pull something new out the bag to investigate the world with, THAT, not whatever she was doing with it is well worth praise.

[charlou]

Who learns from being "successful" (praised) all the time? Being allowed to fail get something wrong and to learn from it, without turning it into a personal evaluation, is important in self awareness and esteem.

I hate school reports. At least those here. They've not changed much since I was at school. ... Actually, I hate school, as I know it from personal experience, and that of being a parent. There, I said it.

[irretating]

Bookmarking

[charlou]

Bookmarking

Edit line.


... Really interested in your experiences and thoughts, irre.

[irretating]

I'm tapatalking but will come back to this

[Mr.Samsa]

Mr Samsa hi

i know next to nothing about behavioral science but i like to think i understand how science works. How do you even measure these things scientifically?

What we consistently find in experiments, or therapy/educational settings, is that using praise to reinforce an activity results in the activity becoming reinforcing in itself.

ok but how do you measure reinforcement? Do you have links to the papers discussing these experiments?

Do you mean how do we measure how many reinforcers someone is receiving, or how do we measure the amount of reinforcement something provides? The first is probably a bit obvious, you just count how many reinforcers are given or you measure the amount/duration of the reinforcer (depending on how it's applied). The second becomes more obvious when we look at what "reinforcement" means; it's the increase in a behavior. So we measure this by measuring the behavior and seeing how much it increases following the reinforcer.

I think I'd need more information before I can link to an experiment, because I'm not sure I can link to an experiment that specifically looks at how to count behavior.. I suppose that a paper on functional analysis might help answer some questions you have though, I recommend something like: The functional analysis model of behavioral assessment. Handbook of applied behavior analysis.. A functional analysis looks at possible sources of reinforcement, and creates idealised environments that would confirm or disconfirm those sources of reinforcement. To determine what kind of reinforcement is controlling a behavior, they obviously have to measure the amount of reinforcers that are being presented in any given environment, and the measure the changes in behavior (the amount of "reinforcement"). Does that help?

[Geoff]

I take this article as an interesting consciousness raiser about interacting with children ... and it meshes with my own observation and experience ... both with regard to children and with regard to adults.

First time I've seen that, charlou, but I can't say I'm all that impressed. I find his reasoning confused and his definitions ambiguous, at best. I think we're all agreed that unconditional praise is, eventually, ineffective, but not for the reasons he puts forward. He seems hooked on the strawman that just saying "good job" is the only way to give praise, when in reality it's much more complex than that.

I completely agree with you about school reports, though, as I'm sure Jim will - they're simply a necessary (from the schools' point of view) hoop for the teacher to jump through, and it's pretty much impossible to devote enough time to them when you have a hundred to get done in an hour (oh, and we're not allowed to say anything critical, so we develop our own "catch-phrases").

[gib]

Mr Samsa hi

i know next to nothing about behavioral science but i like to think i understand how science works. How do you even measure these things scientifically?

What we consistently find in experiments, or therapy/educational settings, is that using praise to reinforce an activity results in the activity becoming reinforcing in itself.

ok but how do you measure reinforcement? Do you have links to the papers discussing these experiments?

Do you mean how do we measure how many reinforcers someone is receiving, or how do we measure the amount of reinforcement something provides? The first is probably a bit obvious, you just count how many reinforcers are given or you measure the amount/duration of the reinforcer (depending on how it's applied). The second becomes more obvious when we look at what "reinforcement" means; it's the increase in a behavior. So we measure this by measuring the behavior and seeing how much it increases following the reinforcer.

I think I'd need more information before I can link to an experiment, because I'm not sure I can link to an experiment that specifically looks at how to count behavior.. I suppose that a paper on functional analysis might help answer some questions you have though, I recommend something like: The functional analysis model of behavioral assessment. Handbook of applied behavior analysis.. A functional analysis looks at possible sources of reinforcement, and creates idealised environments that would confirm or disconfirm those sources of reinforcement. To determine what kind of reinforcement is controlling a behavior, they obviously have to measure the amount of reinforcers that are being presented in any given environment, and the measure the changes in behavior (the amount of "reinforcement"). Does that help?

how do we know one person's 'good girl' is the same as another person's 'you're a very good girl'? Who the hell is counting?I find it hard to believe there are 100s of families carying out these experiments 24/7 in any kind of rigid and meaningful way, dutifully noting on their spreadsheets every time they reinforce.

And how are we measuring the success rate of otherwise of the reinforcers vs the control group?

Maybe when you provide the cite i will be convinced this can be considered science.

[Coito ergo sum]

I have watched the impact of praise for all and criticism for none in schools for the last 20 years or so and it isn't good in my view. It is well established that positive reinforcement does encourage good behaviour and motivates kids, but when it loses meaning (and the kids know it) it doesn't do that any more.

Kids with 'behaviour issues', which was the area I was generally most involved with would be praised for being slightly less 'difficult' or not creating as much mayhem as they might on average do, for example. With clever kids more often than not it would be assumed that progress was its own reward. Generalisations here of course but the end result is kids not really knowing where they stand.

Add to that the culture of "everyone gets a prize/medal." At least here in the US, we have children engaged in sports where there is no losing team. I think they quickly learn there is no point to that, and that a prize is nothing to be especially proud of if everyone gets one just for breathing.

And, I used to be annoyed by the "My Kid is an Honor Student at XYZ High School" bumper stickers on vehicles...now I'm even more annoyed by the "I'm the Parent of a Terrific Kid at XYZ High School" bumper stickers, which came out because non-honor student self-esteem was thought to be threatened by the honor student reference....

[Gawdzilla Sama]

And, I used to be annoyed by the "My Kid is an Honor Student at XYZ High School" bumper stickers on vehicles...now I'm even more annoyed by the "I'm the Parent of a Terrific Kid at XYZ High School" bumper stickers, which came out because non-honor student self-esteem was thought to be threatened by the honor student reference....

[floppit]

Mr Samsa hi

i know next to nothing about behavioral science but i like to think i understand how science works. How do you even measure these things scientifically?

What we consistently find in experiments, or therapy/educational settings, is that using praise to reinforce an activity results in the activity becoming reinforcing in itself.

ok but how do you measure reinforcement? Do you have links to the papers discussing these experiments?

Do you mean how do we measure how many reinforcers someone is receiving, or how do we measure the amount of reinforcement something provides? The first is probably a bit obvious, you just count how many reinforcers are given or you measure the amount/duration of the reinforcer (depending on how it's applied). The second becomes more obvious when we look at what "reinforcement" means; it's the increase in a behavior. So we measure this by measuring the behavior and seeing how much it increases following the reinforcer.

I think I'd need more information before I can link to an experiment, because I'm not sure I can link to an experiment that specifically looks at how to count behavior.. I suppose that a paper on functional analysis might help answer some questions you have though, I recommend something like: The functional analysis model of behavioral assessment. Handbook of applied behavior analysis.. A functional analysis looks at possible sources of reinforcement, and creates idealised environments that would confirm or disconfirm those sources of reinforcement. To determine what kind of reinforcement is controlling a behavior, they obviously have to measure the amount of reinforcers that are being presented in any given environment, and the measure the changes in behavior (the amount of "reinforcement"). Does that help?

how do we know one person's 'good girl' is the same as another person's 'you're a very good girl'? Who the hell is counting?I find it hard to believe there are 100s of families carying out these experiments 24/7 in any kind of rigid and meaningful way, dutifully noting on their spreadsheets every time they reinforce.

And how are we measuring the success rate of otherwise of the reinforcers vs the control group?

Maybe when you provide the cite i will be convinced this can be considered science.

One of the biggest issues in functional analysis (re people) is that even trained students fail to record accurately enough to gain a reliable quantities across across monitors! To pull it up to a standard of science there usually needs to be a doer (one giving reward), an observer and a videotape to video tape the observer! The video tape on it's own merely shifts the inaccuracy from multiple observers to whoever records from the tapes! In applied functional analysis there are 3 areas prone to subjectivity, the definition of the setting in which behaviour takes place, the behaviour (e.g. did the boy push or did he just stop himself falling over?) and the classification of consequence, from attention to a set phrase, token, or immediate primary reinforcer.

I strongly suspect that in trying to utilise experimental results in the real world there's been numerous attempts to teach set means of responding to set behaviour - this in itself can turn the whole bloody thing on it's head. An example would be verbal praise 'Good boy' in repeated trials of a learning task, without variety 'good boy' becomes not only the consequence but the sd that a new trial will begin, so the words 'good boy' can switch from secondary reinforcer to a secondary aversive.

Having taught kids using ABA, I was very aware of the need for fluidity/humanity/variety, that until the task becomes in and of itself a secondary reinforcer (enjoyable) the cock up potential will remain in the red area - and yep, even trained the whole fucking lot can fall down in front of you! At the same time, avoid cock ups and it does truly end up a mindblowing fast and fun way to teach, I have yet to see it surpassed as a means to get results when there's a real need to end argument over a child's potential (eg, when teacher have said they will never read so you teach them to read 15 words in 20 mins!).

Where children are becoming able to understand and respond to complex language I honestly believe getting stuck on measuring the easier to measure 'task accomplished' is counter productive in comparison to rewarding the less easy to measure effort.

[Mr.Samsa]

how do we know one person's 'good girl' is the same as another person's 'you're a very good girl'? Who the hell is counting?

The reinforcing value of things such as praise change from person to person as a result of their unique genetic and learning histories. However, this doesn't change the fact that Kohn's absolute dismissal of praise is incorrect, especially considering that praise is something that appears to be universally reinforcing to some degree.

I find it hard to believe there are 100s of families carying out these experiments 24/7 in any kind of rigid and meaningful way, dutifully noting on their spreadsheets every time they reinforce.

Families aren't. I don't see how this is relevant though? We study behavior in controlled environments (as all science is done), and we develop universal laws of behavior. We know how and why people behave in the way they do, so we can create successful techniques to control people's behavior. Denying it's a science by saying that families don't run these studies in their own home 24/7 is like attacking physicists for not employing orchard owners to measure the rate of acceleration for every apple that falls from their trees - they don't need to, they understand gravity well enough to have a good idea of what's going to happen.

In a nutshell: Kohn claims that praise doesn't work, and even has adverse effects. Science steps in a measures the effects of praise. Science disagrees with Kohn.

Whether ordinary (untrained) people correctly apply the science in their own homes is neither here nor there. For example, there are scientifically demonstrable ways in which dogs should be trained, but that doesn't stop idiots from trying to become the "alpha" in the household, or jackasses like Cesar Milan getting their own TV shows.

And how are we measuring the success rate of otherwise of the reinforcers vs the control group?

Most of these studies use single-subject statistical designs, where the subject acts as their own control. By measuring rates of behavior across conditions we can accurately establish causation with the same level of power as that of a large scale RCT. That is, we can say that praise increases achievement scores in children with the same level of certainty as saying that antibiotics cure bacterial infections.

I should also add that no real learning can take place without reinforcement (whether it be praise, cookies, intrinsic rewards, etc), so the behavior of all subjects in a control group that received absolutely no reinforcement would necessarily flatline. In fact, I think I mentioned earlier that such a condition is called an "extinction" condition, and all available evidence demonstrates that without reinforcement, the behavior drops off to zero. It's like asking for a control group to test natural selection, to see what happens to a group that doesn't reproduce - the answer is kind of obvious.

Maybe when you provide the cite i will be convinced this can be considered science.

You're confusing science with the application of science (and the application of science with the random behavior of laymen).

Teaching your kid to share toys or to enjoy drawing is not science, and applying praise is not science; no matter what methods or techniques you use, it is not and cannot be a science. But if you do so in such a way that is backed up by scientific evidence, then it is the application of science. But just because science supports, for example, praise being used as a tool to increase a certain behavior, it does not mean that people who use praise are necessarily employing scientific methods.

[irretating]

...you've gone too fucking far this time mr samsa... leave Cesar alone!

I just feel sorry for the dooglies having totally nutso owners!

[Mr.Samsa]

...you've gone too fucking far this time mr samsa... leave Cesar alone!

I just feel sorry for the dooglies having totally nutso owners!

Haha I'm sorry but I hate him so very, very much.. He never even fixes the problem!

[tattuchu]

Praise is important, of course, and I think it's good to be generally positive. But criticism is important as well, as long as it's constructive. I'm reminded of my school years in which anything written on a piece of paper, absolutely anything, would get me an automatic "A" in English class. I imagine my shock and dismay when I got into a class where the teacher actually gave us negative feedback and was a tough grader I didn't like it very much. And yet I never learned so much in school as I did in that one class. If I hadn't been so lazy and unmotivated, I imagine I could have learned quite a bit more.