Do people have choices?

[hadespussercats]

hiyymer said: "In an ideal free market capitalist system workers get paid their real economic contribution. "

But how is the "real" economic contribution determined, and who does the determining? This designation seems so subjective as to be almost worthless.

[maiforpeace]

In response to the OP, according to the GOP and the Teabaggers, of course people have choices, especially young people. They're are just lazy bastards.

Boehner's "poor and lazy" comments to Rolling Stone reflect his party's beliefs
April 4th, 2011 10:34 am ET
Leo Kapakos
NY Political Buzz Examiner

Speaker of the House John Boehner claims that the “poor and lazy” caused the current economic crisis during an interview Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone according to Rumormiller.com. Boehner stuck to Republican Party talking points during the interview until Taibbi during a coffee break asked Boehner about today's young people. Apparently unaware he was still on record, Boehner, let Taibbi know how he really felt about poor Americans:

"Can't pay your student loan? Face it your parents were lazy and you couldn't afford college. The world needs ditch diggers and you were born into a family of them. Can't pay your mortgage? Your house was too expensive and you couldn't afford it."It's not going to happen in the US. The kids here are too fat, too lazy, to addicted to TV, fast food, cheap credit, and facebook.” I have news for you- there are plenty of jobs out there- the unemployed don't want them. Today's college student feels entitled to make at least $24 right after college. I'm not worried for this country- there are a few of them who actually want to work, take Mark Zucker(sic). You don't build a site like facebook out of thin air- it takes talent and hard work. I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

For the record, I was raised in the inner city and went to a community college and I did fine. Moreover, Mark Zuckerberg is not your typical American college student. Zuckerberg was a child prodigy who came from a well-to-do family and went to Harvard without the help of student loans. By the way, there are claims that Zuckerberg stole the idea and code for Facebook so he may have been a bit ethically challenged which you forgot to mention. If that’s true, he missed his calling on Wall Street – but I digress.

John Boehner and his beliefs are unfortunately a microcosm of the views of today’s Republican/Tea Party when it comes to America’s poor and middle class. Screw the less fortunate in society- they deserve it. The kids are fat, lazy, and they don’t want to work and their parents are buying homes that they can’t afford. If it were up to John Boehner, we wouldn’t have programs in place that benefit the poor and middle class. Programs like - the Federal Fair Housing Law, Medicaire, Social Security, Food Stamps, Federally sponsored student loan programs, Head Start, Unemployment Compensation, and Collective Bargaining Rights - would not exist.

[hadespussercats]

In response to the OP, according to the GOP and the Teabaggers, of course people have choices, especially young people. They're are just lazy bastards.

Boehner's "poor and lazy" comments to Rolling Stone reflect his party's beliefs
April 4th, 2011 10:34 am ET
Leo Kapakos
NY Political Buzz Examiner

Speaker of the House John Boehner claims that the “poor and lazy” caused the current economic crisis during an interview Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone according to Rumormiller.com. Boehner stuck to Republican Party talking points during the interview until Taibbi during a coffee break asked Boehner about today's young people. Apparently unaware he was still on record, Boehner, let Taibbi know how he really felt about poor Americans:

"Can't pay your student loan? Face it your parents were lazy and you couldn't afford college. The world needs ditch diggers and you were born into a family of them. Can't pay your mortgage? Your house was too expensive and you couldn't afford it."It's not going to happen in the US. The kids here are too fat, too lazy, to addicted to TV, fast food, cheap credit, and facebook.” I have news for you- there are plenty of jobs out there- the unemployed don't want them. Today's college student feels entitled to make at least $24 right after college. I'm not worried for this country- there are a few of them who actually want to work, take Mark Zucker(sic). You don't build a site like facebook out of thin air- it takes talent and hard work. I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

For the record, I was raised in the inner city and went to a community college and I did fine. Moreover, Mark Zuckerberg is not your typical American college student. Zuckerberg was a child prodigy who came from a well-to-do family and went to Harvard without the help of student loans. By the way, there are claims that Zuckerberg stole the idea and code for Facebook so he may have been a bit ethically challenged which you forgot to mention. If that’s true, he missed his calling on Wall Street – but I digress.

John Boehner and his beliefs are unfortunately a microcosm of the views of today’s Republican/Tea Party when it comes to America’s poor and middle class. Screw the less fortunate in society- they deserve it. The kids are fat, lazy, and they don’t want to work and their parents are buying homes that they can’t afford. If it were up to John Boehner, we wouldn’t have programs in place that benefit the poor and middle class. Programs like - the Federal Fair Housing Law, Medicaire, Social Security, Food Stamps, Federally sponsored student loan programs, Head Start, Unemployment Compensation, and Collective Bargaining Rights - would not exist.

Well, fuck. My parents couldn't afford to send me to school. I should have been a ditch-digger, I guess. That's what you're meant to be, if your parents aren't wealthy. Right?

????????

I loved this, too:
"I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

Or, taking notes? Getting work done? Diligently pursuing a degree at a college they can afford?

[FBM]

Seems more like a probabilistic universe than a truly deterministic one.

[Coito ergo sum]

In response to the OP, according to the GOP and the Teabaggers, of course people have choices, especially young people. They're are just lazy bastards.

So....do people have choices, or not?

[PsychoSerenity]

It doesn't appear deterministic to me. It actually appears as if living beings may make choices as to do this or that - jump off a cliff or not - eat a bear or not - etc.

I can type these words, or not. Sometimes some things are harder than others, granted.

If you did consider the world to be deterministic, and that "choices" that people make were completely dependant on their environment, - would that change your opinions of what you consider fair in terms of social welfare/resource distribution?

[Coito ergo sum]

Well, fuck. My parents couldn't afford to send me to school. I should have been a ditch-digger, I guess. That's what you're meant to be, if your parents aren't wealthy. Right?

????????

I loved this, too:
"I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

Or, taking notes? Getting work done? Diligently pursuing a degree at a college they can afford?

Something doesn't smell right about that Boehner quote. It doesn't sound like something he would say.

And, "the world needs ditch diggers?" That's a quote from Caddyshack the movie - Judge Smails says it to Danny when Danny is hitting him up for the Caddy scholarship.

I read the quote a few times, and it doesn't strike me as true. If it was said, it's abysmal. But, it doesn't read like anything anyone would ever say. I mean, "Can't pay your student loans? Face it, your parents were lazy and you couldn't afford college." I can't imagine anyone saying that. "The world needs ditch diggers and you were born into a family of them." I doubt he would say that.

Taibbi's quote reads like a caricature. If it's an accurate quote, then Boehner ought to be done. Question: did Taibbi keep his tape recorder running?

[Coito ergo sum]

It doesn't appear deterministic to me. It actually appears as if living beings may make choices as to do this or that - jump off a cliff or not - eat a bear or not - etc.

I can type these words, or not. Sometimes some things are harder than others, granted.

If you did consider the world to be deterministic, and that "choices" that people make were completely dependant on their environment, - would that change your opinions of what you consider fair in terms of social welfare/resource distribution?

I think we may be operating under different conceptions on what it means to have a choice, and what it means to be "deterministic."

As I understand it, determinism involves a rejection of free will - every event is the inevitable result of antecedent causes. Defined that way, I would say that yes, my entire worldview would change if I accepted that. My views on punishment for crime would change, my views on economics would change, etc. It would change everything, because it would be a fundamental shift in a basic premise.

I do not, however, accept that our actions are pre-determined. While choices are influenced by outside forces and our motives, needs and desires, I do not extend those influences to to conclude that we are automatons with no will of our own.

[hadespussercats]

Well, fuck. My parents couldn't afford to send me to school. I should have been a ditch-digger, I guess. That's what you're meant to be, if your parents aren't wealthy. Right?

????????

I loved this, too:
"I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

Or, taking notes? Getting work done? Diligently pursuing a degree at a college they can afford?

Something doesn't smell right about that Boehner quote. It doesn't sound like something he would say.

And, "the world needs ditch diggers?" That's a quote from Caddyshack the movie - Judge Smails says it to Danny when Danny is hitting him up for the Caddy scholarship.

I read the quote a few times, and it doesn't strike me as true. If it was said, it's abysmal. But, it doesn't read like anything anyone would ever say. I mean, "Can't pay your student loans? Face it, your parents were lazy and you couldn't afford college." I can't imagine anyone saying that. "The world needs ditch diggers and you were born into a family of them." I doubt he would say that.

Taibbi's quote reads like a caricature. If it's an accurate quote, then Boehner ought to be done. Question: did Taibbi keep his tape recorder running?

Boehner doesn't seem like the sort of guy who might have been a big fan of Caddyshack?

Maybe he was mis-quoted. But people unwittingly quote movies they like all the time.

[Robert_S]

So much for social mobility.

[Warren Dew]

Well, fuck. My parents couldn't afford to send me to school. I should have been a ditch-digger, I guess. That's what you're meant to be, if your parents aren't wealthy. Right?

Are you "unable" to pay your student loans? If not, I don't think the comment applies to you.

He's talking about the people who complain about the government taking action to collect on student loans that people left unpaid. Often, those people use excuses like "I can't afford to pay, the degree didn't help me so I shouldn't have to pay", even if they actually could afford to pay if they wanted to. His point is that, if the degree didn't help you, then you probably shouldn't have gone to college and taken on the loans in the first place. Since you chose to do so, you get to be obligated to repay the loans, whether or not you think those loans helped you.

Personally, I think a better solution would be to tie repayment terms to income to make sure it's affordable - X% of income for Y years, or something like that - but that's not an option anyone has suggested, and the government workouts do come close. And it would still mean that people who think the degree didn't help them would still have to do some repayment.

I loved this, too:
"I went to a community college and all I saw were people sitting in front of computers typing away, their eyes were fixed. Probably just facebooking away."

Or, taking notes? Getting work done? Diligently pursuing a degree at a college they can afford?

He's talking about what people are doing that while attending lecture - and it's absolutely true that many of them are ignoring the professor and surfing Facebook. A lot of the professors complain about this.

Personally, I think the answer is for the professors to make their lectures more interesting. On the other hand, I do think it would be more polite for the students to simply skip lecture if they are going to be surfing Facebook, or even if they are getting other work done. They aren't taking notes, because you can't see what the professor has written on the board if your eyes are fixed only on the computer.

[Tero]

Capitalism requires cheap labour, and the international movement of labour produces that in spades. An unfortunate side-effect is that people are then left to choose between very low wages or no job at all. Either option gives them a very poor standard of living and there are few oportunities to improve your skill-set in that situation.

But it gives them a nice healthy work force here. They can't take care of health problems but do reproduce. Before they drop dead. Thus the work force remains young and strong.

[Warren Dew]

It's become quite noticable over the past 10 years or so in the UK that the majority of the lowest paid jobs have been taken by migrant workers who are willing to accept minimum wage for shit jobs which the natives are unwilling to do. I am fairly sure that this has also enabled employers to keep the pay for these jobs significantly lower than it would need to be if not for migrant workers.

When comparing regions of the U.S. with migrant workers to regions without them, this is not what seems to happen. For example, commercial vegetable farming seems to be done only in migrant worker regions. Having a housekeeper is many times more common in migrant worker regions. Low wage labor appears to fill a niche that otherwise doesn't exist, not one that would otherwise be filled with higher wage labor.

I almost said "artificially low" but that would imply there was something wrong with the way we allow migrant workers to live and work here. Capitalism requires cheap labour, and the international movement of labour produces that in spades. An unfortunate side-effect is that people are then left to choose between very low wages or no job at all.

Would it really be better if they didn't have the choice of a low wage job, and were forced to go with no job at all?

[Pappa]

I almost said "artificially low" but that would imply there was something wrong with the way we allow migrant workers to live and work here. Capitalism requires cheap labour, and the international movement of labour produces that in spades. An unfortunate side-effect is that people are then left to choose between very low wages or no job at all.

Would it really be better if they didn't have the choice of a low wage job, and were forced to go with no job at all?

My point really was that the jobs are taken by migrant workers because the wages can be kept lower if they do. I was thinking of fast food restaurants and the like. Those jobs would be filled with non-migrant workers if there were no migrants, but presumably the wages would need to be higher to attract employees that were willing and able to do the job. We get cheap burgers because the wages are so low, if there were no migrant workers, our burgers would be more expensive. I'm not saying either scenario is right or wrong, just commenting on how things seem to have changed in the UK in recent years.

[Atheist-Lite]

Change is ongoing. The population of humans is rising in a unsustainable manner and there is no guarantee innovation will make up for the inevitable brickwall on population growth and then a rapid spiral towards population crash. In fact quite the opposite and any innovation will lead to a greater crash only a little later. Population is deterministic and the ticking timebomb of human numbers is proceeding in a clockwork manner towards disaster. There is talk about 'sustainable' this and 'sustainable' that but all action is a parody of the necessary changes, mega-structural changes to avoid the coming crunch.....which may already be on the cusp reading the papers today.