Slaughtering and eating cats (NSFW?)

[tattuchu]

Hmm, I'm going grocery shopping after work today. I had planned on going to Whole Foods to stock up on grass-fed beef and lamb. I think I'll stock up on nuts instead. They're the only place around (that I'm aware of) that sells unsalted shelled nuts in bulk. And then I'll go across the street to Trader Joe's for yogurt and cheese, both of which are much cheaper there.
This thread has got me thinking about meat eating again, and how disgusting it is. As I say, I deal with this ordinarily by not thinking about it too hard. But yesterday I went out to eat and got a burger. And it was the strangest thing, because I love a good cheeseburger, and I've gotten burgers at this place before so I know they're very good there...but the consistency of the meat was grossing me out. And I couldn't taste it. I could taste everything else, but not the beef. It was like eating wet cardboard. I don't know why. I had just gone to the dentist, but it's not like they numbed my mouth or anything. I just had a cleaning is all.
I dunno. I remember not liking meat as a kid. When my mother made spaghetti with meat sauce, for instance, I'd pick out the hamburger and push it to the side. I got used to eating meat after a while and continued to eat it out of convenience and habit. But when I eat a meal, it's always the vegetables I get most excited about. So I may as well focus on the stuff I love most: vegetables, nuts, cheese. Nuts and cheese have always been a special treat for me. Fuck it, why not eat them regularly if that's what I really like? And that is what I really like. I'll get plenty of protein because I'll still eat egg and dairys. And I have no problem with eating fish. And I'll probably eat chicken occasionally. Yeah, some birds are pretty smart. But chickens are still pretty stupid, so I don't think I'd have a problem eating chickens. As long as I don't have to kill them myself.

[stripes4]

I used to be a non meat eater, but ate a lot of fish. I felt a lot healthier, but ended up buying meat more again when I had kids and they want sausages chicken etc. I still cook veggie stuff but they roll their eyes at it. A lot!!!

[tattuchu]

When I make supper, I might make a burger, rice or potatoes, and peas. It's the peas I go for first. And when the peas are gone, I'm very sad. And then I eat the rest of the stuff because, well, just because it's the rest of the stuff.
I think shifting to a more plant-based diet will be good for me. One thing I gotta work on is the beer, though. I'll never eliminate it completely, but I need to cut back.

[lordpasternack]

This was rude. Sorry, Heather.

I wanted to thank you for apologising, and also say that I know this is an emotive subject - which not even I am fully settled on, except to the ends that I'm not likely to be comsuming meat from certain animals any longer. I think most people agree that many other animals suffer physically and psychologically in ways that are comparable to human suffering - and that it is wrong to turn a blind eye to such suffering. Sentient beings, while they are alive, should never be treated as mere commodities, investments, or produce. (And of course, in our culture, we currently extend our dignity towards humans a fair while after they have ceased being. I don't mind if you fuck my corpse, but I won't be able to tell the law that if they catch you. )

Beyond that, there's the vex issue of taking life - which is an ethical question that I think ties a lot of smart people up in knots. What life is it alright to terminate, humanely or otherwise, without compunction? Is it alright if I find some street kids in some poverty stricken urban area of the world, and "put them out of their misery" with a cloth soaked in chloroform and a good shot of morphine? Is it 'murder', as one YouTube commenter said to me, that a great number of cats and dogs that enter humane shelters are inevitably put down before their time? Would it be right in principle to allow women to terminate the life of a foetus at literally any stage in pregnancy? Would it be right in principle to allow either parent to purposely terminate the life of a healthy newborn? What is 'murder'? What life is it wrong, per se, to terminate, unless you absolutely have to?

And these aren't just 'emotive' arguments - it's an ongoing argument I've been having in my own head, and haven't fully resolved - except enough to bolster my decision to stop eating certain types of animal.

I have joked, although it's a trenchant joke, that people invariably say that sex with other animals is wrong because the animal can't consent - but neither can it consent to being slaughtered - and I know which I'd rather!


To stripes - if you're game, I'd try buying a good brand of veggie burgers or sausages sometime, without letting them know, and see if either of them tells you that they taste funny or don't seem right. I had some seriously lovely sausage and mash at a local veggie café...


To tattuchu - contrary to popular belief, it's pretty fucking difficult for a bog standard lacto-ovo (milk and egg consuming) vegetarian to be deficient in protein. It's easy for VEGANS to get more than enough protein in their diet. The white of an egg is practically 100% protein. Plenty of plant food is rich in protein - particularly legumes (which includes peanuts and various beans), and nuts. I was a bit dismayed to hear Sam Harris say recently in his "Ask Sam Harris anything" interview, that he gave up being vegetarian because he felt he wasn't getting enough protein. He may have been deficient in something, but unless he had a very poorly managed diet or is secretly a bodybuilder - it likely wasn't protein.

You do need to watch both vitamin B12 and iron, though. These are more realistic deficiencies, even if they're still not that likely in our world of foods fortified with everything. Most animal produce will have some iron in it, and some plant produce has more iron in it, calorie for calorie, than red meat. And vitamin C aids absorption of iron from plant foods. Vitamin B12 is more interesting. It is produced by micro-organisms in the guts of certain animals, and is found in practially all animal produce to some degree. Some of our gut flora produce B12, but we can't absorb it efficiently from our colon, for some reason. It isn't found naturally to any significant degree in any plant food. The B12 used to fortify various foods is made from cultivating micro-organisms that produce it - and I believe some B12 occurs naturally in the yeast extract spread, Marmite (which is also fortified with B12).

[Kristie]

My kids like 'special' burgers and chicken nuggets. I explained to my daughter that they don't actually have meat in them, they just taste like meat. She didn't care one way or the other. Personally, I've not had a veggie burger that I really liked.

[lordpasternack]

Personally, I've not had a veggie burger that I really liked.

Really? I like the ones they sell at one of the veggie cafés here. I suppose it depends on what brands are available, and what your tastes are. Some veggie sausages are also good.

Also, I just want to say this - and I know it's a bit sad, but since altering my diet, my skin, particularly on the backs of my hands, has gone really soft and smoothe. It would be wrong to put this purely down to cutting out meat and my attempts to cut out dairy - because it's true that by attempting to rule certain things out, I've been pushed towards other food items, which are, as it happens, generally 'healthier'. To satisfy my sweet tooth for instance, I've been buying teeth-rotting shite like blueberries and strawberries, and flapjack-type bars made out of nuts and seeds, and cocoa orange flavoured 'Nakd' bars - which are mainly made out of cold-pressed dates, raisins and cashews... But seriously, every so often I'm finding myself stroking the backs of my hands and being impressed by how soft they feel...

[Robert_S]

My kids like 'special' burgers and chicken nuggets. I explained to my daughter that they don't actually have meat in them, they just taste like meat. She didn't care one way or the other. Personally, I've not had a veggie burger that I really liked.

Have you tried spicy black bean burgers with a salsa dip?

[tattuchu]

Well I got cashews, pine nuts, and pistachios. My favorites! And a variety of quality cheeses. Plus some fresh veggies, and lots of yogurt. Also a six-pack of Fullers ESB, and a six-pack of nice local RyePA. Me am happy

[Gallstones]

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.

So, what are we to do with all those Angus cattle? Turn them into pets? Not likely. They'd go extinct, like most breeds of pigs.

Prey is prey. Predators prey. That is life.

[Gallstones]

Grilled dog and cat smells pretty good. I imagine they would taste good too.


Oh, oh ,oh, I'm not going to eat meat because it's cruel---pretentious BS.
Being alive means that numerous other living things have to die. Welcome to reality--or not, as one sees fit.

[Robert_S]

Grilled dog and cat smells pretty good. I imagine they would taste good too.


Oh, oh ,oh, I'm not going to eat meat because it's cruel---pretentious BS.
Being alive means that numerous other living things have to die. Welcome to reality--or not, as one sees fit.

We happen to be in a position to lessen the number of beings that we need to kill and the amount of suffering they go through beforehand.

I'll admit that I LOVE the taste of beef. I really do. I can eat some beans or I can eat a piece of a cow. What influences my decision are convenience, taste, my health and ethics. I lean towards rarely eating the beef these days.

I agree with your other post though. Cows probably make horrible pets.

[lordpasternack]

Being alive means that numerous other living things have to die. Welcome to reality--or not, as one sees fit.

Being human - being humans in the circumstances we are - means we have the privilege of making decisions about WHICH living things have to die, which living things we have to kill, how they have to live before they're killed, and how we're going to kill them. And you consciously make decisions like that all the time.

We don't need to eat sentient beings to live, and we definitely don't need to be cruel to them while raising them as livestock. Being vegetarian, vegan or resigning ourselves to eating more primitive animals are entirely viable lifestyle choices. Welcome to our reality.

Oh, and Haekel was wrong - ontogeny DOESN'T (always) recapitulate phylogeny. Just saying…

[Ronja]

I dunno. I remember not liking meat as a kid. ... I got used to eating meat after a while and continued to eat it out of convenience and habit. But when I eat a meal, it's always the vegetables I get most excited about. So I may as well focus on the stuff I love most: vegetables, nuts, cheese. Nuts and cheese have always been a special treat for me. Fuck it, why not eat them regularly if that's what I really like? And that is what I really like.

My eating is limited by what I can eat - I'm severely lactose intolerant, have latent diabetes (like pretty much everyone in my mother's family) and a congenitally non-functioning gall bladder - but since this May, when I started focusing on eating almost exclusively what I really enjoy, I've dropped six kilos (about 13 pounds) and feel better than in ages.

If I got to choose, of the red meats we would only eat lamb and reindeer, as they get to live free. There are three other, strongly expressed opinions in the family, though, so we shall see how our foodstuff future turns out...

[Gallstones]

Being alive means that numerous other living things have to die. Welcome to reality--or not, as one sees fit.

Being human - being humans in the circumstances we are - means we have the privilege of making decisions about WHICH living things have to die, which living things we have to kill, how they have to live before they're killed, and how we're going to kill them. And you consciously make decisions like that all the time.

We don't need to eat sentient beings to live, and we definitely don't need to be cruel to them while raising them as livestock. Being vegetarian, vegan or resigning ourselves to eating more primitive animals are entirely viable lifestyle choices. Welcome to our reality.

We can not prevent suffering, or even the majority of suffering. We can only make meager choices on avoiding the killing of some small number of living things. I do consciously make the decision to swat a mosquito, I do it on purpose and with purpose--the purpose to make it be dead. I will continue to do that. I do not make any conscious decisions to not kill any number of the other multitudes of living things that are killed by pesticides and herbicides and plows and harvesters and combines and concrete. But if I decide to eat and wear clothing, things will--unavoidably--be killed for it. Killing myself so to prevent my further involvement in that won't stop suffering or killing either.

I do make a conscious effort to not step on anything scurrying on the sidewalk or is making it's way across the road--if I am conscious of it. Not because it is sentient or not sentient, but because it is alive with a life I can't give and doesn't belong to me. But, I am a sentient organic organism and I must consume to live. I consciously choose to eat animals as well as plants. Some are harvested from the wild. Domestic animals can be raised with a high quality of life even if they will end their life to be eaten---everything is food for something. Even the sentient are ultimately only nutrients and compost. That's the payback.

I like cows, and chickens and horses and ducks and dogs and deer and coyotes and butterflies and trout and........tomatoes.
I like having them around; and not just to eat them. I don't want to live in a world were they don't exist. I don't need to need to eat them to eat them.

Haekel was wrong - ontogeny DOESN'T (always) recapitulate phylogeny. Just saying…

Oh, I wasn't saying he was right or that the hypothesis was correct. The image you linked represents ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. That is all.

Haekel, right or wrong, was an exceptional draftsman. I can only wish to produce to his standard.

[Gallstones]

I was on the highway today. I saw a lot of cattle napping in the pastures along the way---must have been cow nap time. The poor things were confied to a mere several hunderd to few thousand acres of grass. They must have felt claustophobic in all that free space. No wonder they slept, must make them tired. Eating, eructating, sleeping and defacating all day, day after day. When they are out there chewing cud do they think, "I wish some predators would come by and give us a bloody good romp, it is so booooorrrring around here. And I wish I could be bothered by flies and parasites just to have something interesting to do."

Poor things, their lives of open spaces and grass and getting rained on and nursing calves and drinking from a creek and having enough forage just dropped on the ground in the dead of winter so they don't have to dig through snow and ice or browse twigs and bark is just cruel and inhumane.