Without evil there'd be no good ...

[Surendra Darathy]

Surendra, From all I can tell, you are something of a rigid thinker…

You say that as though you thought there was something wrong with it. It's an interesting distinction between "rigid" and "disciplined". When it's hard to be good, it's good to be rigid. Best way to pass out discipline.

…but there are holes in the arguments you set forth.

Well, wherever there's an accommodating hole, there's a place to insert some rigidity.

Perhaps the biggest hole is that, so far, neither you nor anybody else can demonstrate that you can differentiate between subjective experience and objective reality with absolute certainty.

That's what the spoon-bending business is about. But leave that for a moment, and explain first how absolute certainty is of any benefit, whether in constructing an argument where ex recto assertions are not permitted, or in the empirical universe, where absolute certainty is not demonstrated. First point out where is "absolute certainty" demonstrated, and then I'll be content to let you wibble about it. Absolute certainty is subjective, if it is anything. In fact, you don't need both terms, "subjectivity" and "absolute certainty". They overlap too much. Doubt is empirical, and you express it with odds and probabilities, so as to communicate it to others.

Some people like to talk about these things as if they can, but, when put to the test, the best they can come up with is probabilities.

Precisely. All you're observing is that absolute certainty is subjective and that the empirical universe is probabilistic. Your subjective conviction, plus a shiny sixpence, will buy you a brightly colored gumball. Don't get it in your lungs by trying to breathe and chew gum at the same time.

Demonstrate with absolute certainty that you can differentiate between that which is subjective and that which is objective.

Basically, LaMont, it will be pretty easy to classify statements you make as subjective or objective. If you talk to yourself, that's subjective. If you say something to somebody else, the statement is objective, although its content may be bullshit.

In the non-material realm, good and evil may exist as pure concepts, true dichotomies, but the way they play out in the real world is with such gradient ideas as good, better, best and bad, worse, worst.

Yeah, but the question is whether or not the words "good" and "evil" have any utility, not whether "better" and "worse" do. You've just discovered the difference between absolute truth and relativism. "Best" and "worst" are relative to items on a menu or to the final standings of the NBA, when draft day comes around.

If it's up to you, would you rather spend the rest of your life in jail or out of jail?

In the finest traditions of relativism, LaMont, I will say that the decision turns on identifying who's on the inside and who's on the outside. Who's going to propose to me that I make that decision arbitrarily? The prison population is determined in its utter entirety by a plebiscite deciding what the laws are and who are the lawbreakers. If it weren't for the company, I would have little basis on which to choose, unless you want to tell me some bullshit such as the freedom to take a stroll in the park is an absolute good thing. If you do, please make the argument non-relative.

For most of us, it's an easy decision...it's good to be out of jail, and it's bad to have your ass in jail.

Yep. It's now an objective fact that you have glossed over that point.

From that point, we can consider better and best and worse and worst. It's really not all that hard to do for supposedly rational, large-brained beings such as us.

No, sorry, LaMont. No matter how many times you recite your dogmas, "best" and "worst" are relative to a list of menu items. Better and worse are preferences, and you don't get to dictate them.

In your life, who is the person who places value and makes judgements about those experiences, including the one you are having right now?

But that's not the question, LaMont. The point is not whether or not we have subjective preferences, but whether we know the difference between the objective and the subjective. Like I said, the objective happens when you start talking to other people, and the subjective happens when you are mumbling to yourself. Personally, I don't place so much stock in what I mumble to myself that I'm suddenly willing to broadcast to the entire world (if it's listening) that I think I can float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, particularly when all evidence is to the contrary.

[RuleBritannia]

For most of us, it's an easy decision...it's good to be out of jail, and it's bad to have your ass in jail.

Yep. It's now an objective fact that you have glossed over that point.

Actually it's not objective, if you're making a decision then it has to subjective because it's mind dependent.

[Surendra Darathy]

For most of us, it's an easy decision...it's good to be out of jail, and it's bad to have your ass in jail.

Yep. It's now an objective fact that you have glossed over that point.

Actually it's not objective, if you're making a decision then it has to subjective because it's mind dependent.

You've just tried to demolish the whole edifice of evidentiary decision-making. Sure, you can decide that what one considers evidence is a subjective matter, but it doesn't explain everything there is to know about how people assemble what they consider to be empirical evidence.

Whatever your decision, "I want to be in jail because I like being around criminals" or "I want to be out because I don't like being around criminals" is going to be based on empirical characteristics of criminals, or else it is going to be arbitrary. Generally this will involve an empirical definition of criminality.

As I said, the norms with respect to which we express our preferences are the results of a plebiscite. If you want to assert that a plebiscite is an illusion, be my guest. It's a fucking bell curve, my man.

[BlackBart]

Hello Bob. Getting Ratz to nail jello to a wall now?

[LaMont Cranston]

BlackBart, WOW! How is your ass? It's nice to see you again. I think that there is much more of party atmosphere here than some other places I could name. See you around the Ratz...

PS: Since we're old friends, I like it that you call me Bob, but please don't reveal my secret identity...

[LaMont Cranston]

RuleBritannia, Let me get this straight...

You think heads/tails is a real dichotomy, and Surendra thinks it's a false dichotomy. I'm more than willing to consider both possibilities, and I can't think of any reason why we are compelled to make an "either/or" choice because somebody subjectively insists that something must be a certain way.

I agree with you that Surendra's attempt to assert that "an objective fact has been glossed over" is totally subjective on his part. If you'll notice, we are actually agreeing on a number of things.

[colubridae]

My real name is David Cotomi.

My mother was welsh and my father was italien.


stop misusing my name!

[RuleBritannia]

RuleBritannia, Let me get this straight...

You think heads/tails is a real dichotomy, and Surendra thinks it's a false dichotomy. I'm more than willing to consider both possibilities, and I can't think of any reason why we are compelled to make an "either/or" choice because somebody subjectively insists that something must be a certain way.

I agree with you that Surendra's attempt to assert that "an objective fact has been glossed over" is totally subjective on his part. If you'll notice, we are actually agreeing on a number of things.

No, we agree on nothing, I'm a materialist, you're an idealist.

[LaMont Cranston]

Surendra, Actually, I didn't say that there's anything inherently wrong with being "rigid," but I could see how you think that "disciplined" is a good thing, from your subjective point of view, and "rigid" is a rather limited way of thinking. Yes, when it's hard to be good...and, as many of us know, it can be very good to be hard...discipline can be a good thing. So can being open-minded. It may be hard for some people to be good, but for others, it comes quite easy. In fact, the more you do it, the better you get at doing it...but that's another subject.

Excuse me, but where does your idea come from that ex recto assertions are not permitted or that absolute certainty cannot be demonstrated? What I've been saying all along is that you have not demonstrated that you can differentiate between subjective and objective, and you just agreed with me. Thank you for doing that! It appears you are trying to make a case that your subjective take is more valid than that of others, including myself. Good luck proving that to anybody but yourself.

Yes, I have the subjective conviction that a shiny sixpence will buy me a gumball or something else. So do you. We live in a world of subjective experiences, and we form agreements that things are a certain way. For instance, we pass around pieces of metal, paper and plastic among ourselves so that we can buy and sell things. It's all part of the real world.

Thank you for telling us, at long last, how you differentiate between subjective and objective. Does that mean that everything you say to somebody else is objective, whether it's bullshit or not? Does the speaker's perception of the person/people they're talking to have anything to do with it? By the way, just how does the receiver of what is supposedly being said objectively know whether it is bullshit or not? Let me guess...because you say so! My, doesn't that make for a strong case?

Actually, I've known the difference between absolute truth and relativism for quite awhile. For most of us, both "good," "evil,"better," "worse" and a lot of other things have utility in that we use the ideas and concepts of what those words respresent in our lives. Those words describe, however accurately, parts of our real experience. Once again, it's really not all that tough to get next to.

As for that thing about being in jail, for most people, it's far from an arbitrary decision. Who is going to propose to you that you make that decision arbitrarily? Nobody. Why should anybody else care what you decide about that part of your life? It's your life. However, it is a decision most people make based on real life experience, rational thinking and whatever other sources we can find. Do some people, apparently, prefer being in jail to not? It appears that's the case. Maybe it's because they get three meals a day, a roof over their heads and multiple opportunities to interact, sexually and otherwise, with others of the same gender. For those people who actually prefer that as a chosen lifestyle, I say go for it! For most of us in the plebiscite, it's really not a difficult decision to make.

While we're on the subject, do we really need to have an empirical definition of criminality to determine we'd rather be out of jail instead of in it? If you require an empirical definition or anything else, it shouldn't be all that tough for you to figure it out. That is, unless you're such a rigid thinker that it actually limits your capacity to recognize that existing behind iron bars might put a bit of a crimp in the goals that you hope to achieve as a supposedly rational, clear-thinking, conscious human being.

[LaMont Cranston]

RuleBritannia, OK, we agree on nothing. At least we agree on that...

[LaMont Cranston]

colubridae, Excuse me, but what is your post about? Are we ever going to get back to talking about the lefties and righties in the world of amino acids? I've thought about bringing back "The God Game," but it seems that people have such a strong emotional reaction to it that I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with it. See you around. The Shadow Knows..

[BlackBart]

BlackBart, WOW! How is your ass? It's nice to see you again. I think that there is much more of party atmosphere here than some other places I could name. See you around the Ratz...

PS: Since we're old friends, I like it that you call me Bob, but please don't reveal my secret identity...

Secret identity?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

BlackBart, WOW! How is your ass? It's nice to see you again. I think that there is much more of party atmosphere here than some other places I could name. See you around the Ratz...

PS: Since we're old friends, I like it that you call me Bob, but please don't reveal my secret identity...

Secret identity?

His real name is Fifi Flowerbuttocks.

[colubridae]

RuleBritannia, OK, we agree on nothing. At least we agree on that...

Good one.

[BlackBart]

BlackBart, WOW! How is your ass? It's nice to see you again. I think that there is much more of party atmosphere here than some other places I could name. See you around the Ratz...

PS: Since we're old friends, I like it that you call me Bob, but please don't reveal my secret identity...

Secret identity?

His real name is Fifi Flowerbuttocks.

Ah. The lesser known sister of Reggie and Ronnie Flowerbuttocks.