Shame

User avatar
Evabot
babe in the woods
Posts: 5782
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:58 am
About me: ¡Hierba mala nunca muere!
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Evabot » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:23 pm

On the general topic of shame. From my own personal experience, shame can sometimes be uncontrollable, unforeseeable, and unintentional.

not an argument or position, just a thought on "shame" in general.
Image

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Robert_S » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:36 pm

rachelbean wrote:I will type more of my thoughts later, but I'd say that for the most part I think that empathy can do the positive parts of the job of shame or guilt without any of the negativity that goes along with the latter two.
Empathy isn't perfect either. It can be manipulated into guilt: "look how you made me feel" or "If you left me, I wouldn't be able to go on".

Sometimes I fuck up and feel guilty about it if I should have known better. I think that feeling of guilt helps me to remember to be more thoughtful. But it needs to be in moderation and guarded from manipulation.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:40 pm

Evabot wrote:On the general topic of shame. From my own personal experience, shame can sometimes be uncontrollable, unforeseeable, and unintentional.

not an argument or position, just a thought on "shame" in general.
And so very often transferred to a person by some bastard who wanted to get rid of themselves.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
floppit
Forum Mebmer
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:06 am
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by floppit » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:48 am

I think most emotions have both a place and a purpose, in a sense they have also evolved through natural selection right along with our eyes, arms and legs.

If I were given a choice to be unable to feel shame I would decline. In a sense I find it hard to understand empathy without shame, a feeling within myself when my actions have hurt another, whether accidently or purposefully. I'm not sure how I could or would register that I had harmed, together with an awareness of the 'others' position/feeling without an emotional response. It's not so much the presence of the emotion, more how it's dealt with once it's there.

I reckon that when I started this thread I suspected there was something for me to learn out of it all. I wonder if shame can be dealt with as a learning experience? When it's felt, to look for the lesson and then close it up and move on?

What I am sure of (as other posters have said) is that's it's powerful and often used as a means of coercion. When I think about forum arguments I'm sure it's often the case that one poster is trying to induce another to feel ashamed, probably without consciously deciding on that course of action. One issue that comes to mind is comparison between internet and 'real' life. Another issue, touched on in my OP, is pressure to keep the status quo, to avoid the messiness of life being on show - something I believe is very visible in Asian cultures but I'd argue still thriving quite well in western culture, just less explicit.
"Whatever it is, it spits and it goes 'WAAARGHHHHHHHH' - that's probably enough to suggest you shouldn't argue with it." Mousy.

User avatar
hadespussercats
I've come for your pants.
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 am
About me: Looks pretty good, coming out of the back of his neck like that.
Location: Gotham
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:54 pm

I have a lot of social anxiety, which often amounts to immense amounts of shame, for no good reason. Oddly, I often feel fine in the moment, but experience a lot of shame in my inevitable post-game analysis. I can even feel shame all anew for something stupid I said fifteen years ago-- and it can hit me out of nowhere.

A weird consequence of this is that I've come to be less afraid of embarrassing myself-- speaking up in public, etc.-- because when you feel ashamed all the time, it stops meaning so much.
The green careening planet
spins blindly in the dark
so close to annihilation.

Listen. No one listens. Meow.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:56 pm

I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
hadespussercats
I've come for your pants.
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 am
About me: Looks pretty good, coming out of the back of his neck like that.
Location: Gotham
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:13 pm

Gawdzilla » wrote:I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
I remember when my dad told me never to be ashamed of my body. He said, "Look at me, my body sure isn't beautiful, but hey-- it's what I've got." Said with a sense of "Life goes on-- don't miss out because you don't think you look right."

I don't think shame about bodies is ever a good thing. ( Of course, it's a hard standard to keep, when my middle currently looks like a loaf of uncooked bread. ;) )

Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
The green careening planet
spins blindly in the dark
so close to annihilation.

Listen. No one listens. Meow.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:20 pm

hadespussercats » wrote:
Gawdzilla » wrote:I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
I remember when my dad told me never to be ashamed of my body. He said, "Look at me, my body sure isn't beautiful, but hey-- it's what I've got." Said with a sense of "Life goes on-- don't miss out because you don't think you look right."

I don't think shame about bodies is ever a good thing. ( Of course, it's a hard standard to keep, when my middle currently looks like a loaf of uncooked bread. ;) )

Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
I would call that remorse, not shame.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
hadespussercats
I've come for your pants.
Posts: 18586
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:27 am
About me: Looks pretty good, coming out of the back of his neck like that.
Location: Gotham
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:23 pm

Gawdzilla » wrote:
hadespussercats » wrote:
Gawdzilla » wrote:I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
I remember when my dad told me never to be ashamed of my body. He said, "Look at me, my body sure isn't beautiful, but hey-- it's what I've got." Said with a sense of "Life goes on-- don't miss out because you don't think you look right."

I don't think shame about bodies is ever a good thing. ( Of course, it's a hard standard to keep, when my middle currently looks like a loaf of uncooked bread. ;) )

Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
I would call that remorse, not shame.
Ah. There's a lot of subtle gradations in these negative feelings, huh?
The green careening planet
spins blindly in the dark
so close to annihilation.

Listen. No one listens. Meow.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:25 pm

hadespussercats » wrote:
Gawdzilla » wrote:
hadespussercats » wrote:
Gawdzilla » wrote:I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
I remember when my dad told me never to be ashamed of my body. He said, "Look at me, my body sure isn't beautiful, but hey-- it's what I've got." Said with a sense of "Life goes on-- don't miss out because you don't think you look right."

I don't think shame about bodies is ever a good thing. ( Of course, it's a hard standard to keep, when my middle currently looks like a loaf of uncooked bread. ;) )

Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
I would call that remorse, not shame.
Ah. There's a lot of subtle gradations in these negative feelings, huh?
Well, I tend to group them into "native" and "installed". Shame is not native, but remorse is.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Hermit » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:44 pm

floppit » wrote:I'd love to know what other people think about shame, whether it has a place at all.
I have done things in the past that I am now ashamed of. Sure, it can be argued that I could not have done any other than I did at the time but that does not stop me from feeling shameful for what I did then. Having said that, I can't see why your situation, as exemplified by your car boot market anecdote, should make you feel ashamed.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
charlou
arseist
Posts: 32528
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:36 am

Re: Shame

Post by charlou » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:45 pm

Gawdzilla » wrote:
hadespussercats » wrote:
Gawdzilla » wrote:I don't believe shame is anything but an instilled attitude. Young children happily run around naked until they get enough shocked attitudes thrown at them.
I remember when my dad told me never to be ashamed of my body. He said, "Look at me, my body sure isn't beautiful, but hey-- it's what I've got." Said with a sense of "Life goes on-- don't miss out because you don't think you look right."

I don't think shame about bodies is ever a good thing. ( Of course, it's a hard standard to keep, when my middle currently looks like a loaf of uncooked bread. ;) )

Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
I would call that remorse, not shame.
I think, with the kind of scenarios hades is describing ... there's possibly "a scale" of: recognition > shame > regret > remorse ... and perhaps guilt is in there for some people too ... and for each person (and each situation) where they are and how much of that "scale" applies is different.
no fences

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:50 pm

As may be, Char, but the non-native emotions are, IMHO, just manipulations forced on us by others. In societies where women can go topless freely there is no shame attached to being seen braless. But in the "modern" societies, the religious prudes have created a situation like our lovely Eva had to deal with.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
charlou
arseist
Posts: 32528
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:36 am

Re: Shame

Post by charlou » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:52 pm

hades scenarios I was referring to:
hades wrote:Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
no fences

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Shame

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:54 pm

charlou » wrote:hades scenarios I was referring to:
hades wrote:Feeling ashamed for hurting someone, though-- or treating someone poorly, or acting negligently and causing an accident-- that sort of thing... I think a little shame in those circumstances is appropriate.
I still think "remorse" works better there. "Shame" requires other people be involved in the self-criticism. Remorse doesn't.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests