Is Long Term Solitary Confinement Torture?

[Seth]

What evidence do you have for the 'enormous harm' that you think Manning should be executed for?

Release of hundreds of thousands of classified military and diplomatic documents that will (and likely already has) get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and will damage our diplomatic efforts for decades to come. The full extent of the harm may never be fully known, but it was espionage which gives aid and comfort to our enemies by revealing our military secrets and confidential diplomatic communications, and it's therefore treason, and he should be executed as an example to other traitors and spies, just like the Rosenbergs.

Very nebulous answer. Evidence is required for your claim that the release of the documents will get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. As for damaging your diplomatic efforts for decades to come, evidence required once more.

No, all that is required is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Manning stole and disseminated classified documents to our enemies, which is beyond question. That alone is sufficient proof upon which to impose the death penalty.

[Seth]

We certainly don't need Wikileaks to damage our reputation in either of those wars, we are doing a fine job of it without Wikileaks.

And what about due process, Seth?

I said he should have a trial. He's admitted he stole the classified materials. He's proud of it. All that's left is a quick trial and then an even quicker execution. In the front door of the courtroom, out the back door after conviction to the gallows. Summary execution in time of war is a common punishment for military personnel.

[irretating]

What evidence do you have for the 'enormous harm' that you think Manning should be executed for?

Release of hundreds of thousands of classified military and diplomatic documents that will (and likely already has) get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and will damage our diplomatic efforts for decades to come. The full extent of the harm may never be fully known, but it was espionage which gives aid and comfort to our enemies by revealing our military secrets and confidential diplomatic communications, and it's therefore treason, and he should be executed as an example to other traitors and spies, just like the Rosenbergs.

Very nebulous answer. Evidence is required for your claim that the release of the documents will get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. As for damaging your diplomatic efforts for decades to come, evidence required once more.

No, all that is required is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Manning stole and disseminated classified documents to our enemies, which is beyond question. That alone is sufficient proof upon which to impose the death penalty.

Is wikileaks an official enemy combatant? Who are your enemies?

[Seth]

What evidence do you have for the 'enormous harm' that you think Manning should be executed for?

Release of hundreds of thousands of classified military and diplomatic documents that will (and likely already has) get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and will damage our diplomatic efforts for decades to come. The full extent of the harm may never be fully known, but it was espionage which gives aid and comfort to our enemies by revealing our military secrets and confidential diplomatic communications, and it's therefore treason, and he should be executed as an example to other traitors and spies, just like the Rosenbergs.

Very nebulous answer. Evidence is required for your claim that the release of the documents will get people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. As for damaging your diplomatic efforts for decades to come, evidence required once more.

No, all that is required is proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Manning stole and disseminated classified documents to our enemies, which is beyond question. That alone is sufficient proof upon which to impose the death penalty.

Is wikileaks an official enemy combatant? Who are your enemies?

Doesn't matter, wikileaks provided classified US documents to our enemies, who include Communist China, Al Quaeda, and any other state hostile to the United States that has access to the Internet. That's espionage, and Assange and his crew need to be taken out like any other spy organization. Quietly and finally.

[irretating]

China is your enemy? How come I haven't seen that on the news?

[Seth]

China is your enemy? How come I haven't seen that on the news?

Because "the news" is in cahoots with the Chinese Communists...

[hadespussercats]

China is your enemy? How come I haven't seen that on the news?

China owns what, one out of every five U.S. dollars? (I should check most recent figures, but it's a significant portion, regardless.)

That makes for an uncomfortable power dynamic, certainly. But it does seem also to make us allies-- since dollars are only worth something if the U.S. gov't and its economy are worth something.

[Gallstones]

Everybody is our enemy. Potentially. Trust no one.

[JimC]

Manning deserves some penalty, because he did the wrong thing in his position, technically, even though I (and most of the world) view it as a useful contribution.

But the OTT suggestions in this thread are both bizarre and fanatical...

[Seth]

Manning deserves some penalty, because he did the wrong thing in his position, technically, even though I (and most of the world) view it as a useful contribution.

But the OTT suggestions in this thread are both bizarre and fanatical...

He's a traitor. He needs to be publicly hung as a warning to other traitors.

[Ian]

Manning deserves some penalty, because he did the wrong thing in his position, technically, even though I (and most of the world) view it as a useful contribution.

But the OTT suggestions in this thread are both bizarre and fanatical...

He's a traitor. He needs to be publicly hung as a warning to other traitors.

I say give him 12.5 years.

What he did was an enormous crime, and it probably fits the definition of treason. But as far as intent goes, it seems like he did it more for an ego boost than with the intent of deliberately hurting the US, or international diplomacy, or the Army, or whatever. He's basically an irresponsible kid who probably wasn't even capable of grasping the real world implications of what he did. He thought it would be cool, and he might've gotten away with it if he didn't promptly brag about it to complete strangers on an internet forum.

So why 12.5 years? Because unless stated otherwise, all classified documents automatically become unclassified 25 years after their dissemination date. And seeing as how there's some question as to the maliciousness of Manning's intent, I'd be OK with giving him leniency by cutting that time period in half. Given the publicity around his sentence, 12+ years seems like a decent enough deterrent for others thinking about doing the same sort of thing.

[Seth]

Manning deserves some penalty, because he did the wrong thing in his position, technically, even though I (and most of the world) view it as a useful contribution.

But the OTT suggestions in this thread are both bizarre and fanatical...

He's a traitor. He needs to be publicly hung as a warning to other traitors.

I say give him 12.5 years.

What he did was an enormous crime, and it probably fits the definition of treason. But as far as intent goes, it seems like he did it more for an ego boost than with the intent of deliberately hurting the US, or international diplomacy, or the Army, or whatever. He's basically an irresponsible kid who probably wasn't even capable of grasping the real world implications of what he did. He thought it would be cool, and he might've gotten away with it if he didn't promptly brag about it to complete strangers on an internet forum.

So why 12.5 years? Because unless stated otherwise, all classified documents automatically become unclassified 25 years after their dissemination date. And seeing as how there's some question as to the maliciousness of Manning's intent, I'd be OK with giving him leniency by cutting that time period in half. Given the publicity around his sentence, 12+ years seems like a decent enough deterrent for others thinking about doing the same sort of thing.

Stupidity is not a defense. The present and future harm to the United States is literally incalculable. The strategic and tactical military doctrine and practice secrets he provided to our enemies will indisputably result in more American deaths on the battlefield. The revelation of confidential sources and informants in Afghanistan and elsewhere will cost the lives of many of those informants, if it hasn't already done so, and it will compromise our ability to gather confidential information that is essential to finding and neutralizing terrorists. There is no doubt whatsoever that people have, or will die as a result of his treason, and he is one-hundred percent responsible for those deaths.

Preservation of our national security and protection of our troops in the field require the maximum penalty for traitors who reveal our military secrets to the enemy, both as punishment for the crime, and as a deterrent to those who might decide that 12 years in jail, if they are caught, is an acceptable sacrifice. After all, our enemies are willing to strap bombs to themselves and commit suicide, so a prison sentence is a slap on the wrist.

Sorry, but treason deserves at least life in prison, and execution is more appropriate, because it prevents liberal panty-waist judges of the future from sympathizing with a traitor long after the harm he's done has been forgotten and letting him out.

The death penalty is a 100 percent effective cure for recidivism and liberal judges.

[MarkS]

But Seth, the wikileaks revelations about the Tunisian dictator's lifestyle triggered the popular (and secular) revolutions throughout the middle East bringing hope of democracy and encouragement to protest and fight for it! The spread of greater freedom and democracy must be good for the US, right? I'd argue that Manning did everyone a big favour.

[Seth]

But Seth, the wikileaks revelations about the Tunisian dictator's lifestyle triggered the popular (and secular) revolutions throughout the middle East bringing hope of democracy and encouragement to protest and fight for it! The spread of greater freedom and democracy must be good for the US, right? I'd argue that Manning did everyone a big favour.

Moral relativism at its finest. Information has no desire to be "free." Some information is best kept private. While it may be a good thing to reveal the opulent lifestyle of a middle-east dictator, for a soldier of the United States to reveal military secrets that compromise our ability to wage war effectively and which get our soldiers killed is quite simply treasonous.

And who says that the unrest in the Middle East is going to result in democracy? I'd say it's much more likely that it will end in brutal fundamentalist radical Islamic theocracy and the creation of the Caliphate throughout the Middle East and northern Africa.

That's the grave danger of regime change, don't you see...unless you know who's going to take power, you may well be making things much, much worse. And that is particularly true of Libya. While I would happily push the button to stuff a Hellfire up Quaddaffy's ass, he is the devil we know, and we'd managed to cow him in to some sort of reasonable submission by dropping JDAMs on his tent. What will replace him is anybody's guess at this point.

[Warren Dew]

Bradley Manning, the soldier who leaked all the classified documents to Wikileaks, has been in solitary confinement for the last four months. Does he deserve this punishment even though he hasn't been been tried yet, and Is it torture?

I consider significant terms of imprisonment to be less humane than corporal punishment; since corporal punishment is considered "torture" by some, if you wanted to broaden the term "torture" enough, you could argue that it applies to all imprisonment sentences.

I don't see solitary confinement to be any worse than nonsolitary confinement; in fact I think it's in many ways more humane. I don't think there's a good argument that the fact that he's in solitary confinement instead of some other kind of confinement makes it torture.

It's clearly not torture under the Geneva Conventions.