"Unborn Child"

[Svartalf]

Ever read Machiavelli's The Prince?... It's definitely not moral standards that drive the SoBs that rule us.

[Trolldor]

I'm fairly certain it is.
Moral standards are not universal.

[hiyymer]

Noone's saying law is divorced from morality. We're saying they're not exactly the same thing, and the distinction is important. Law is formal, morality doesn't have to be.

What's a moral framework or morality? Morality is a choice in the moment and every moment is different. The momentary moral choice is ultimately based on irrational feelings springing from our biological regulation. It is the resolution of our conflicted evolutionary motivations. It's what feels right. What wins in this moment, my own selfish needs or the needs of the group? The brain is also capable of evoking moral reactions by thinking about a situation. We can say "God would tell us to do this". But that is not morality; it's thinking about morality. It's categorizing moments, not living them. There is no "moral framework" that actually exists. Every moral choice is unique and irrational in the moment.

The law is a set of agreements belonging to the group. It defines what the group thinks is worthy of it's interest after the fact. It's based on what happened. Agreements are arbitrary. They can be changed. But the law is still an expression of the groups evolutionary need to police/coerce its members. The alpha chimp might arbitrarily knock some juvenile upside the head for swiping someone else's banana and make it clear that future banana swipes will result in the same legal consequences. Human society is more complicated.