How far is too far when collecting a debt?

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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 am

Causing harm to people already in poverty, sure...

Violence is stretching a term a tad too far, IMO...
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:49 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:18 am
Ridiculous. You'd have to consider taxation, road rules etc as violence. C'mon.
Why? I think there's a distinction to be made between potential common goods like taxation and road rules and the systematic exploitation of vulnerable people (here, in immediate medical need) for private profit backed by the authority of the state. Again, in this instance I think the term usury covers things pretty well.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:58 pm

JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 am
Causing harm to people already in poverty, sure...

Violence is stretching a term a tad too far, IMO...
What is violence if not to act knowingly to inflict harm on others? Physical force is not the only kind of force that can be used in those kinds of acts is it?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by laklak » Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:18 pm

Regulation is violence! Taxation is theft!
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Joe » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:21 pm

<Seth>Down with jackbooted, armored, machine-gun-toting government thugs taking my money and telling me what to do! :lay: </Seth>
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:55 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:58 pm
JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 am
Causing harm to people already in poverty, sure...

Violence is stretching a term a tad too far, IMO...
What is violence if not to act knowingly to inflict harm on others? Physical force is not the only kind of force that can be used in those kinds of acts is it?
I know we're not arguing about whether this whole medical debt situation is bad for people, or an example of an uncaring system, it's just that I think that there is little point in taking terms too far beyond their usual meaning. To be, violence is best left as a term for physical acts...
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Tero » Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:36 pm

Need that socialism. Bernie or Warren, which one is it?
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 am

JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:55 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:58 pm
JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 am
Causing harm to people already in poverty, sure...

Violence is stretching a term a tad too far, IMO...
What is violence if not to act knowingly to inflict harm on others? Physical force is not the only kind of force that can be used in those kinds of acts is it?
I know we're not arguing about whether this whole medical debt situation is bad for people, or an example of an uncaring system, it's just that I think that there is little point in taking terms too far beyond their usual meaning. To [me], violence is best left as a term for physical acts...
I understand the distinction, but I think it's false. People can and do commit acts of violence upon others without using physical force. Acts of sustained verbal and/or psychological abuse, for example, are no less deliberate on the part of the abuser or harmful on the part of the victim for the absence of bruises or wounds - which is to say, that just because someone isn't being slapped, punched, kicked, cudgelled, run down, set on fire, stabbed, or shot doesn't mean they are not being subjected to acts (force) intended to cause them harm. I dispute that this is taking the term 'violence' beyond its usual meaning. But as I said, I am a bit of a left. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by JimC » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:29 am

Brian Peacock wrote:

...sustained verbal and/or psychological abuse...
Even if we stretch the term "violence" to include such acts, done deliberately by one person to another, causing real harm, it is a further stretch to use the term for systemic problems involving financial harm produced by a messed-up health system. It is enough to recognise the inherent injustice, and press for change...
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:31 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 am
JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:55 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:58 pm
JimC wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:37 am
Causing harm to people already in poverty, sure...

Violence is stretching a term a tad too far, IMO...
What is violence if not to act knowingly to inflict harm on others? Physical force is not the only kind of force that can be used in those kinds of acts is it?
I know we're not arguing about whether this whole medical debt situation is bad for people, or an example of an uncaring system, it's just that I think that there is little point in taking terms too far beyond their usual meaning. To [me], violence is best left as a term for physical acts...
I understand the distinction, but I think it's false. People can and do commit acts of violence upon others without using physical force. Acts of sustained verbal and/or psychological abuse, for example, are no less deliberate on the part of the abuser or harmful on the part of the victim for the absence of bruises or wounds - which is to say, that just because someone isn't being slapped, punched, kicked, cudgelled, run down, set on fire, stabbed, or shot doesn't mean they are not being subjected to acts (force) intended to cause them harm. I dispute that this is taking the term 'violence' beyond its usual meaning. But as I said, I am a bit of a left. :tea:
Violence, in the normal vernacular, is physical. The SJW left has indeed abused the definition of the word. There's plenty of words to describe the harm caused by a debt based financial system without redefining words.
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by rainbow » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 am
I dispute that this is taking the term 'violence' beyond its usual meaning.
The term that covers this is 'coercion'.
Que?

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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:06 am

rainbow wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 am
I dispute that this is taking the term 'violence' beyond its usual meaning.
The term that covers this is 'coercion'.
Then in this case coercion becomes a form of violence - a deliberate act intended to harm - or a feature of violence. One should also acknowledge that we can also be subject to coercive acts that are intended to limit harm or to promote some specific personal or wider goods, but even where that is the case coercion involves force or the threat of force. "Now eat up all your vegetables or I'll have to talk to your father when he comes home."

If violence is only a deliberate act that results in physical harm then the threat of violence isn't itself an act of violence, but I'm pretty sure that most of us would accept that a threat of violence is at least an expression of violence, which basically makes it a form of violence (here, a form of emotional or mental violence) or a feature of violence. I understand the distinction being made but I dispute the exclusive equivalence of 'violence' and 'physical assault'.

What I'm trying to highlight is systemic violence; that forms and features of violence can be endemic within a system like US medical finance, for example, where powerful commercial entities backed by a state (an entity with a monopoly on violence) uses legal frameworks that limit and/or harm the wellbeing of individuals in immediate medical need for profit, and do so in the knowledge that their action will lead to harm and potentially the death of the individual.

Somehow we don't see this harm as a violence not only because the 'assault' portion of the equation doesn't seem to take place - although making people bankrupt and homeless while limiting or completely removing their access to necessary medical treatment is certainly an unavoidable consequential harm in those circumstances - but also because we're encouraged to see the so-called real moral crime as being the one against money: the debt, the inability to pay for treatment and the defaulting on a finance agreement. The medical finance entity has all the power and yet as the judge basically pointed out the victim of the system only has themselves to blame for taking out a finance agreement for immediate and necessary medical treatment which they couldn't service because of their illness.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by JimC » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:16 am

Brian Peacock wrote:

Somehow we don't see this harm as a violence not only because the 'assault' portion of the equation doesn't seem to take place - although making people bankrupt and homeless while limiting or completely removing their access to necessary medical treatment is certainly an unavoidable consequential harm in those circumstances - but also because we're encouraged to see the so-called real moral crime as being the one against money: the debt, the inability to pay for treatment and the defaulting on a finance agreement. The medical finance entity has all the power and yet as the judge basically pointed out the victim of the system only has themselves to blame for taking out a finance agreement for immediate and necessary medical treatment which they couldn't service because of their illness.
I don't think anyone here is going to dispute that the systemic harm committed on the poor by this collision of unethical health care and greedy finance is utterly reprehensible. But, I call it harm, reserving violence for a narrower set of actions, simply to preserve clear and defined word usage...
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:26 am

Would you be happy to call this unethical, reprehensible, greedy system of medical financing an assault, either on the individual or on society at large?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: How far is too far when collecting a debt?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:34 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:06 am
rainbow wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:28 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:41 am
I dispute that this is taking the term 'violence' beyond its usual meaning.
The term that covers this is 'coercion'.
Then in this case coercion becomes a form of violence - a deliberate act intended to harm - or a feature of violence.
Loaning people money isn't a deliberate act intended to harm. Where are you getting this stuff from? :think:
If violence is only a deliberate act that results in physical harm then the threat of violence isn't itself an act of violence, but I'm pretty sure that most of us would accept that a threat of violence is at least an expression of violence, which basically makes it a form of violence (here, a form of emotional or mental violence) or a feature of violence.
That doesn't follow at all. A threat of violence is a threat, not violence.
Somehow we don't see this harm as a violence not only because the 'assault' portion of the equation doesn't seem to take place - although making people bankrupt and homeless while limiting or completely removing their access to necessary medical treatment is certainly an unavoidable consequential harm in those circumstances - but also because we're encouraged to see the so-called real moral crime as being the one against money: the debt, the inability to pay for treatment and the defaulting on a finance agreement. The medical finance entity has all the power and yet as the judge basically pointed out the victim of the system only has themselves to blame for taking out a finance agreement for immediate and necessary medical treatment which they couldn't service because of their illness.
The vast majority of people service their loan without default. There's been no violence towards these people.
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