Problematic Stuff

Locked
User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:26 pm

Forty Two wrote:Oh, yes, the first amendment means you can walk into court and tell the judge to go fuck himself, too.
So what's your point? Either people have free speech all the time or they don't.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 9483
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijk beschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:29 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Oh, yes, the first amendment means you can walk into court and tell the judge to go fuck himself, too.
So what's your point? Either people have free speech all the time or they don't.
Big deal. I could do that here but I would not. Why tell a judge to go and fuck himself? Just what are going to achieve. FA
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 19043
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Hermit » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:32 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Oh, yes, the first amendment means you can walk into court and tell the judge to go fuck himself, too.
So what's your point? Either people have free speech all the time or they don't.
Um, shouting "FIRE!" in the disco?


User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 13194
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:42 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Oh, yes, the first amendment means you can walk into court and tell the judge to go fuck himself, too.
So what's your point? Either people have free speech all the time or they don't.
Image
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:43 pm

No answer then..
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 13194
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:01 pm

I made my point. It wasn't the declarative statement you made.
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:04 pm

You said that the first amendment means people can't be sacked for negatively affecting their employers image or failing to meet set standards. Swearing is a case of both of those.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:I made my point. It wasn't the declarative statement you made.
And neither was yours - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 1#p1755441
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
L'Emmerdeur
Posts: 1763
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:04 pm
About me: Yuh wust nightmaya!
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:49 pm

Jordan Peterson isn't a lawyer, and his po-faced denunciation of the the Canadian law is based on a misunderstanding of what it actually does. We can give him the benefit of the doubt due to his ignorance, but nobody should consider his opinions on the matter to be based on an accurate reading of the law. Brenda Cossman (quoted below) is a lawyer, and a professor of law at the same university where Peterson is employed as a professor of psychology.

''No, the Trans Rights Bill Doesn’t Criminalize Free Speech'
A controversial University of Toronto professor has railed against a piece of legislation designed to enshrine human rights protections for transgender Canadians, arguing it will criminalize his right to free speech. But he has it all wrong, say experts.

Psychology professor Jordan Peterson made headlines in late September when he uploaded a YouTube video warning that bill C-16, introduced by the Trudeau government in May, would trample free speech. He has since become outspoken in refusing to use proper gender pronouns, calling them "constructs of a small coterie of ideologically motivated people."

Peterson told media that C-16 risks "criminalizing discussions" about aspects of human sexual behaviour and identity.

...

"The addition to the human rights code is not about criminalizing anything," said University of Toronto professor Brenda Cossman, pointing out that violating the human rights code can only be punished through fines or non-financial remedies, like changing hiring practices, but never jail time.

The Supreme Court, in a 2013 case, found that for someone to run afoul of the Human Rights Act, it needed to be actively encouraging hatred.

"People are free to debate or speak out against the rights or characteristics of vulnerable groups, but not in a manner which is objectively seen to expose them to hatred and its harmful effects," the top court ruled.

What's more, Ontario—where Peterson works—already has human rights protections for transgender people in the provincial human rights code, thanks to a bill, virtually identical to C-16, that was passed by the Ontario legislature in 2012.

The Ontario Human Rights Commission released a policy statement in 2014 pointing out that, aside from behaviour and outward appearance, a "person's chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender."

In the House of Commons, Albrecht's assertion that the bill would clamp down on faith groups was rejected by NDP MP Randall Garrison—the politician who has been working to get this legislation passed for the better part of five years.

"The bill would do nothing to restrict people's freedom to their own beliefs or to teach their own children," Garrison told Albrecht during the debate. "What it would do is try to protect the expression of hatred and the kind of discrimination in public that takes place each and every day against transgender Canadians."

C-16 will also update Canada's Criminal Code, criminalizing "advocating genocide" and the "public incitement of hatred" based on gender identity or gender expression—adding those two classes to the current list of protected classes: colour, race, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation, and mental or physical ability.

"The use of pronouns is not about advocating genocide," said Cossman.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 13194
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:20 pm

pErvinalia wrote:You said that the first amendment means people can't be sacked for negatively affecting their employers image or failing to meet set standards. Swearing is a case of both of those.
I did? Where?
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 13194
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:22 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I made my point. It wasn't the declarative statement you made.
And neither was yours - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 1#p1755441
Never said it was.
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 13194
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:35 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:Jordan Peterson isn't a lawyer, and his po-faced denunciation of the the Canadian law is based on a misunderstanding of what it actually does.
It's not, actually, since we saw the way administrators believe the law applies in the Lindsey Shepard case, wherein the diversity officer - trained specifically in that area - declared that she had violated the very law that Jordan Peterson was chirping about.
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
The Supreme Court, in a 2013 case, found that for someone to run afoul of the Human Rights Act, it needed to be actively encouraging hatred.
Sure, but when you have diversity officers at major Canadian universities applying the law as if presenting a discussion of pronoun use and such in a neutral manner was transphobia and hate speech, then they are categorizing exactly what Lindsey Shepard did, for example, as active encouragement of hatred. Without her audio recording, it is not inconceivable that she ultimately would have been drummed out of Laurier for exactly the reasons Jordan Peterson warned.
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
"People are free to debate or speak out against the rights or characteristics of vulnerable groups, but not in a manner which is objectively seen to expose them to hatred and its harmful effects," the top court ruled.
I'd love to read that opinion. Because that statement is clear as mud. If you think you know what speech "against the rights or characteristics of vulnerable groups" is expressed "in a manner not objectively seen [by whom?] to expose them to hatred and its harmful effects" then you're fooling yourself. That's one of the big problems in Canadian law in this area. It's really impossible to know where the line is.

This was fought through a few years ago in some famous cases. In an exchange during the Marc Lemire case, lead CHRC investigator Dean Steacy was asked "What value do you give freedom of speech when you investigate?" Steacy responded:= "Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value... It's not my job to give value to an American concept." LOL. I guess Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms which contains an even broader individual right, that of "free expression," is chop liver to him too.
L'Emmerdeur wrote: What's more, Ontario—where Peterson works—already has human rights protections for transgender people in the provincial human rights code, thanks to a bill, virtually identical to C-16, that was passed by the Ontario legislature in 2012.
Peterson has addressed that many times. That's his main issue - not the text of C-16, but the interpreting guidance from the Ontario human rights commission.

L'Emmerdeur wrote: The Ontario Human Rights Commission released a policy statement in 2014 pointing out that, aside from behaviour and outward appearance, a "person's chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender."

In the House of Commons, Albrecht's assertion that the bill would clamp down on faith groups was rejected by NDP MP Randall Garrison—the politician who has been working to get this legislation passed for the better part of five years.

"The bill would do nothing to restrict people's freedom to their own beliefs or to teach their own children," Garrison told Albrecht during the debate. "What it would do is try to protect the expression of hatred and the kind of discrimination in public that takes place each and every day against transgender Canadians."
Sure, and things like what lindsey shepard did - playing a 4 minute clip of a conversation about pronoun usage - is then characterized by administrators as transphobic and hate speech.
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
C-16 will also update Canada's Criminal Code, criminalizing "advocating genocide" and the "public incitement of hatred" based on gender identity or gender expression—adding those two classes to the current list of protected classes: colour, race, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation, and mental or physical ability.

"The use of pronouns is not about advocating genocide," said Cossman.
[/quote]

No, but it is, according to trans activists, and in given examples that actually occurred, in the minds of administrators and professors, examples of "hatred."
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:You said that the first amendment means people can't be sacked for negatively affecting their employers image or failing to meet set standards. Swearing is a case of both of those.
I did? Where?
Oh ffs. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 5#p1755193
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:31 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvinalia wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I made my point. It wasn't the declarative statement you made.
And neither was yours - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 1#p1755441
Never said it was.
Yes, but your refrain quoted above is a bit hypocritical in light of this.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 47139
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:34 pm

Forty Two wrote:
L'Emmerdeur wrote:Jordan Peterson isn't a lawyer, and his po-faced denunciation of the the Canadian law is based on a misunderstanding of what it actually does.
It's not, actually, since we saw the way administrators believe the law applies in the Lindsey Shepard case, wherein the diversity officer - trained specifically in that area - declared that she had violated the very law that Jordan Peterson was chirping about.
This is a retarded defence, one you've trotted out before, and one that's been addressed before. Presumably because it is a Fox News talking point. What a diversity officer thinks is irrelevant to the law.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests