Future moral values

[mistermack]

I wonder if attitudes to property will change too?

We have inherited a system that fundamentally relies on the concept of property, as an incentive to work.
But in Cyprus, just recently, they trod all over that. What you own can be taken, in times of need.

I've got a feeling there will be a lot more of that, in years to come. As the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, it will become more acceptable to do. Unfortunately, the very rich will always be able to dodge it, leaving the middle to lose out.
Now that the cat's out of the bag, the very rich will be finding more foolproof ways of stashing the cash away from the taxmen.

[MrJonno]

Not sure how Cyprus involved treading on property rights,

Public invested in a bank , bank went bankrupt, people lost heir investment but the German tax payer and others gave them 90% ish of their money back out of good will

Property rights are relatively recent anyway as most people simple owned nothing more than they could carry until recent times. Even today a large number of people in the UK and I assume elsewhere have net wealth of zero or even a negative net wealth

[Jason]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

[En_Route]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

In fact you are. You are handing over a sum of money in return for an income yield and the obligation to repay the stated sum on demand or possibly at a future later date. There is no guarantee that the bank will honour that obligation but EU jurisdictions will recompense depositors who lose out when a bank crashes up to a maximum generally of euro 100,000.
In previous bail- outs, the bank depositors were fully protected but in th case of Cyprus the EU declined to do so, because they were mainly Russians stashing hot money.

[En_Route]

Not sure how Cyprus involved treading on property rights,

Public invested in a bank , bank went bankrupt, people lost heir investment but the German tax payer and others gave them 90% ish of their money back out of good will

Property rights are relatively recent anyway as most people simple owned nothing more than they could carry until recent times. Even today a large number of people in the UK and I assume elsewhere have net wealth of zero or even a negative net wealth

To have zero or negative net wealth does not mean you do not possess property rights. If you have a house worth 100 units and a mortgage of 120 units, you would still be rather aggrieved if I,the abominable and machiavellian En Route, turfed you out of your property without recourse or recompense leaving you with the liability but no asset.

[Jason]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

In fact you are. You are handing over a sum of money in return for an income yield and the obligation to repay the stated sum on demand or possibly at a future later date. There is no guarantee that the bank will honour that obligation but EU jurisdictions will recompense depositors who lose out when a bank crashes up to a maximum generally of euro 100,000.
In previous bail- outs, the bank depositors were fully protected but in th case of Cyprus the EU declined to do so, because they were mainly Russians stashing hot money.

Good to know. In that case, I'll be sure to empty all accounts in the case of an imminent bank failure.

[En_Route]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

In fact you are. You are handing over a sum of money in return for an income yield and the obligation to repay the stated sum on demand or possibly at a future later date. There is no guarantee that the bank will honour that obligation but EU jurisdictions will recompense depositors who lose out when a bank crashes up to a maximum generally of euro 100,000.
In previous bail- outs, the bank depositors were fully protected but in th case of Cyprus the EU declined to do so, because they were mainly Russians stashing hot money.

Good to know. In that case, I'll be sure to empty all accounts in the case of an imminent bank failure.

You wouldn't be the only one.

[pErvinalia]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

They are taking the money and giving them shares in the bank. Probably worthless in time, but maybe not, if managed properly.

[En_Route]

Is that what happened? The way I heard it was they were taking any money on deposit over $100,000. When I make a deposit in a bank I'm not making an investment AFAIK.

They are taking the money and giving them shares in the bank. Probably worthless in time, but maybe not, if managed properly.

Not quite that simple. The second biggest bank(Laiki) is effectively being allowed to die on its feet, with deposits in excess of €100,000 very likely to be wholly vapourised. Part of the deposits at the largest bank (Bank of Cyprus) will be converted into shares in that bank, current exchange rate being 3 shares= I stray piece of secondhand confetti. Cyprus is to my mind profoundly and irredeemably fucked. As a country based in the EU but (literally) boasting negligible taxes it was a major hub for tax avoidance (and evasion). In turn this supported flourishing legal and accounting service sectors which were the cornerstone of the island's economy. These will be annihilated as Cyprus is now pretty well a financial untouchable.

[MrJonno]

It's worrying when you loan money to a bank and you can't trust it to pay you back but its nothing to do with property rights. Admittedly I've always assumed banks were safe and in the EU unless you are extremely wealthy they are (E100 000 secure per bank) and there are probably a good dozen independent banking groups you can deposit in.

Can't you invest in government bonds as well which have never defaulted yet?, or did they in Greece?

[Beatsong]

Property rights are relatively recent anyway as most people simple owned nothing more than they could carry until recent times.

You mean the widespread exercise of property rights among the majority is relatively recent.

I'm sure the English feudal landowners would have been only too happy to kill you if you tried to claim that their property rights didn't exist.

[En_Route]

It's worrying when you loan money to a bank and you can't trust it to pay you back but its nothing to do with property rights. Admittedly I've always assumed banks were safe and in the EU unless you are extremely wealthy they are (E100 000 secure per bank) and there are probably a good dozen independent banking groups you can deposit in.

Can't you invest in government bonds as well which have never defaulted yet?, or did they in Greece?

There is nothing inviolable about Government Bonds. Sovereign debt defaults were not uncommon in the past and Greece could have been added to the list if the bail-out deal there had fallen through. These are precarious times. And the worst of it is, we can't even pray.

[Warren Dew]

Property rights are relatively recent anyway as most people simple owned nothing more than they could carry until recent times. Even today a large number of people in the UK and I assume elsewhere have net wealth of zero or even a negative net wealth

Things you can carry can still be property.