Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby tuco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:03 pm

Now do you realize that I have no way to defend myself of such accusation without engaging in what I consider bickering?

My arguments are consistent and bulletproof when it comes to logic. There could be problem with mis/understandings but I do not claim stuff I cannot support with evidence, I use "seem", "probably", "in my opinion" etc frequently to denote uncertainty, I try to be on topic and debate essence unlike details, I try to contribute with something more than just "opinion" because that is mostly worthless.

wtf are you on about?

I said I was cooperative. And explained what it meant. And you call it hypocrisy. I do not care. I am cooperative, but will retaliate. My rules of debate differ from yours, but that does not make me hypocritical. But it does .. ! Whatever
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:55 pm

Repeatedly personally attacking people, and incessantly whinging, is not cooperative.

Look, I've repeatedly pointed out where your arguments and logic are flawed (when you've actually made arguments, as opposed to whining incessantly), and you've almost totally ignored virtually all those rebuttals. So don't pretend you don't know what I am talking about. It's clear to me you aren't here for honest debate. What, you want respect for that bullshit? How about... No?!! Contribute honestly and I might show you some respect. Keep trolling, and I'll keep vigorously calling you on it.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby tuco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:18 pm

This I consider bickering and refuse to participate in further. The topic is, Why sexism persist ..? I let the mythical read to decide who contributed what.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:00 pm

While many have dismissed the idea of sexual and gender fluidity as just a passing fad or social trend, some scientists are suggesting it springs from something more tangible: our brains.

New research has shown there is, in fact, no major distinction between male and female brains. That, far from being "hardwired", gender is actually more complex.

A study published recently in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found most brains are comprised of unique "mosaics" of features, some that are more common in one sex than another, and some that are commonly seen in both.

For the study Tel Aviv University psychology professor Daphna Joel and her colleagues analysed the MRI scans of more than 1,400 human brains from four datasets.

They looked at the differences between men's and women's brains, from size variations in different parts of the brain, to the amount of grey and white matter and the strength of brain connections.

While many regions showed extensive overlap between the sexes, the researchers honed in on the regions showing the largest differences, then defined a "male-end" zone and a "female-end" zone for each of these regions based on the scores of the most extreme third of men and women.

The researchers found that, across the four datasets, the percentage of brains with only "female-end" or "male-end" features was small, ranging from 0 to 8 per cent, depending on the sample, while those with both "male-end" and "female-end" features varied between 23 per cent and 53 per cent.

In other words, most brains cannot be categorised as either "male" or "female", but tend to be a mixture — or "mosaic" — of both.

"Sex affects the brain, but how it affects the brain depends on other factors," Professor Joel said.

"The effects of sex can be different and even opposite under different conditions. This is why you can be highly masculine on one feature but highly feminine on another feature."

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-1 ... dy/7179088
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby Forty Two » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:35 pm

so, a psychology professor analyzed MRI scans, looking for physical size variations, differences in white and grey matter proportions, and the "strength of brain connections - and the conclusion is that male and female brains are "not that different?" Sounds like a solid scientific analysis of brain functioning....lol
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby tuco » Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:12 pm

I am lead to believe male and female brains differ, especially with regards to "wiring" thus functioning, for example here:

Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females? - http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/ment ... omens.html

however it seems that the study mentioned in the article was set to determine:

Sex/gender differences in the brain are of high social interest because their presence is typically assumed to prove that humans belong to two distinct categories not only in terms of their genitalia, and thus justify differential treatment of males and females. Here we show that, although there are sex/gender differences in brain and behavior, humans and human brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males. Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.


http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.full

which is consistent with:

But do these differences mean a superiority/inferiority relationship between men and women?
"No", says Dr. Pearlson. "To say this means that men are automatically better at some things than women is a simplification. It's easy to find women who are fantastic at math and physics and men who excel in language skills. Only when we look at very large populations and look for slight but significant trends do we see the generalizations. There are plenty of exceptions, but there's also a grain of truth, revealed through the brain structure, that we think underlies some of the ways people characterize the sexes."

Dr. Courten-Myers concurs: "The recognition of gender-specific ways of thinking and feeling -- rendered more credible given these established differences -- could prove beneficial in enhancing interpersonal relationships. However, the interpretation of the data also has the potential for abuse and harm if either gender would seek to construct evidence for superiority of the male or female brain from these findings."


from: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/ment ... omens.html
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby Forty Two » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:08 pm

Right. It's similar to strength and athletic ability. There are plenty of examples of women who are and better athletes than plenty of men, but when you look at it via populations, clearly men are on average physically stronger than women. It's not a function of "Better" or "Worse" -- it's different.

Like, there is a reason skeletal remains of women and men can generally be easily identified - the structures are generally different. There is no reason to think one organ, the brain, is immune from these kinds of differences.

But, what does that matter to the issue of day to day life, whether preferences as to games, movies, masturbatory material, or whatever? People like what they like. Maybe some of it is due to structural or genetic issues, and maybe some is due to socialization. However, the human behavior of socialization is also driven by genetics and "nature." We are social creatures. If it so happens that in one population of humans men tend to like beer and watching sports, and women tend to like wine coolers and shopping at malls, then why is this a "problem" that needs to be fixed?

Can't people just play the video games they like, and make the video games they want to make?

I guess the argument is that people are making certain games depicting male and female characters in a certain way, and that if they depicted them in another way, then more women might play that game. So, it boils down to the argument that women want to play a different game, and feminists want to compel people who make certain games to make them in a way that they think appeals to women.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby tuco » Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:33 pm

Hence the problem with sexism; people being idiots about it, not giving benefit of doubt while either not understanding induction/generalization or/and just being mean.

Especially since the jury is still out so to say as the debate about nurture vs nature is on going and not well informed. Another thing to consider is that while there might be measurable differences at the top (like in athletics) on average measurable differences do not need matter for practical purposes. Man can run 2 sec faster than woman. OK but this has, little to, no influence in daily life where average performance is required/needed. We are not robots to operate within normal parameters at all times in need to deliver top performances.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:37 am

tuco wrote:I am lead to believe male and female brains differ, especially with regards to "wiring" thus functioning, for example here:

Are There Differences between the Brains of Males and Females? - http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/ment ... omens.html

however it seems that the study mentioned in the article was set to determine:

Sex/gender differences in the brain are of high social interest because their presence is typically assumed to prove that humans belong to two distinct categories not only in terms of their genitalia, and thus justify differential treatment of males and females. Here we show that, although there are sex/gender differences in brain and behavior, humans and human brains are comprised of unique “mosaics” of features, some more common in females compared with males, some more common in males compared with females, and some common in both females and males. Our results demonstrate that regardless of the cause of observed sex/gender differences in brain and behavior (nature or nurture), human brains cannot be categorized into two distinct classes: male brain/female brain.


http://www.pnas.org/content/112/50/15468.full

which is consistent with:

But do these differences mean a superiority/inferiority relationship between men and women?
"No", says Dr. Pearlson. "To say this means that men are automatically better at some things than women is a simplification. It's easy to find women who are fantastic at math and physics and men who excel in language skills. Only when we look at very large populations and look for slight but significant trends do we see the generalizations. There are plenty of exceptions, but there's also a grain of truth, revealed through the brain structure, that we think underlies some of the ways people characterize the sexes."

Dr. Courten-Myers concurs: "The recognition of gender-specific ways of thinking and feeling -- rendered more credible given these established differences -- could prove beneficial in enhancing interpersonal relationships. However, the interpretation of the data also has the potential for abuse and harm if either gender would seek to construct evidence for superiority of the male or female brain from these findings."


from: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/ment ... omens.html

The problem would seem to be people wanting to define it as either all genetic or either all learning. The likelihood is that it's a mix, and where the mix lies is the real question.

A problem I see with any of these studies is that they should ideally look at infants before social learning pathways are written in the brain.

The other question that could be relevant is epigenetics. What part does that play, and is it nature or nurture (or technically both)?
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:48 am

Forty Two wrote:Like, there is a reason skeletal remains of women and men can generally be easily identified - the structures are generally different. There is no reason to think one organ, the brain, is immune from these kinds of differences.


There's plenty of reason, given organs like the heart, liver, lungs, kidney etc are probably exactly the same when factored for body weight.

But, what does that matter to the issue of day to day life, whether preferences as to games, movies, masturbatory material, or whatever? People like what they like. Maybe some of it is due to structural or genetic issues, and maybe some is due to socialization. However, the human behavior of socialization is also driven by genetics and "nature." We are social creatures. If it so happens that in one population of humans men tend to like beer and watching sports, and women tend to like wine coolers and shopping at malls, then why is this a "problem" that needs to be fixed?


As I said, it's more of a problem when it comes to toys, and advertising, where boys/men are often encouraged to be *something* (like fireman doctor etc), whereas girls/women are often encouraged to look like something (eg princess, barbie etc).
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby tuco » Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:53 am

Here are outlined some problems encountered when doing research on babies/young kids:

Lise Eliot: Pink Brain, Blue Brain - http://library.fora.tv/2009/09/29/Lise_ ... Blue_Brain

As for epigenetics, I asked about it several times on different occasions but was not lucky to meet anyone informed enough.

---

We touched on it earlier. Lets say we know exactly what the mix is. What now? It answers the question of "either learning or genetic" but it solves nothing when it comes to sexism.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby Forty Two » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:17 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Like, there is a reason skeletal remains of women and men can generally be easily identified - the structures are generally different. There is no reason to think one organ, the brain, is immune from these kinds of differences.


There's plenty of reason, given organs like the heart,



The female heart is somewhat smaller than a man's, about two-thirds the size. Its physiology is different, too. At puberty, the rate of repolarization or QT interval becomes longer in females and shorter in males (after age 60 those differences largely disappear). Studies show that women's mean 24-hour heart rates are more rapid than men's.

.Women are also at greater risk for drug-induced torsades de pointes, a sometimes fatal ventricular arrhythmia that occurs without provocation in people with long-QT syndrome. Similarly, women with long-QT syndrome suffer a higher rate of sudden cardiac death than men with the syndrome. Women are also more likely to have adverse reactions to anti-arrhythmic therapy and to medications that lengthen QT intervals.

Researchers now know that this is due to gender-related differences in the biology of the ion channels in the heart the tiny "pores" in cell membranes that allow charged molecules to flow in and out of cells which affect the duration of cardiac repolarization.

"We all went to medical school and were taught that all hearts are the same, it's just a muscle. But, in fact, it's a hormonally sensitive muscle," remarks Raymond L Woosley MD PhD, chairman of pharmacology at Georgetown University. "Sex hormones interact with one of the most primitive signaling mechanisms in the body, potassium channels, and this has direct consequences in terms of heart rhythm."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/782902#vp_2
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:48 pm

Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Like, there is a reason skeletal remains of women and men can generally be easily identified - the structures are generally different. There is no reason to think one organ, the brain, is immune from these kinds of differences.


There's plenty of reason, given organs like the heart,



The female heart is somewhat smaller than a man's, about two-thirds the size.


"when factored for body weight." :bored:
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby pErvinalia » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:09 pm

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Postby Rum » Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:18 pm

From the Beeb at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35752657

SXSW 2016: Little impact from isolated online abuse summit


In funky downtown Austin, Texas, the South By Southwest Interactive festival attracts enthusiastic start-ups desperate to grab your attention. Over and over again you hear people implore: "Please sign up!"

But over the river, a very different tone can be found at a side event that looks to take on an uncomfortable truth for the cheerful masses - that for an increasing number of people, being on the internet is a miserable, and sometimes dangerous experience.

For the first time in SXSW's 22-year history, the festival has facilitated an Online Harassment Summit. It was intended to be a gathering of people who have been affected, as well as a smattering of people who might be able to do something about the problem.

In the end, the event was marked by determination but frustration - with little sign of tangible progress.

The path to Saturday's summit was dramatic. It began when Caroline Sinders, a Brooklyn-based user researcher, mooted the idea of a panel discussion at SXSW looking at online harassment - specifically, harassment within gaming.

After threats of harassment were made, Ms Sinders' panel was cancelled by SXSW.

So too was a separate panel organised by several supporters of Gamergate - a controversial online movement which at that time said it was about ethical concerns in gaming journalism, but was regarded by others as a thinly veiled front for misogynistic abuse.

Neither panel had mentioned Gamergate specifically, but the issues at hand were undoubtedly linked.

The cancellation of Ms Sinders' event caused uproar, and threats from some media outlets to boycott the entire SXSW event.

It led to a compromise: an entire day of discussion about online harassment, but at a venue that could be protected with tight security.

'They are failing us'

Attending the event was Brianna Wu, a games developer who has been on the receiving end of online abuse for well over a year.

Hosting a panel that asked "Is a safer, saner and civil internet possible?", Ms Wu accused social networks of standing by while their platforms were used to spread hate.

"When it comes to pragmatically moving the ball forward, we need oversight for social media companies," Ms Wu told the BBC later.

"They need outside people to come in and view their processes to make sure that things like death threats and harassment has no role in the public conversation.

"We need social media companies to step up their policies - because they are failing us."

Representatives from several technology companies - most notably Google and Facebook - also took part in panel sessions.

Google declined the BBC's request for an interview on the subject, but Facebook's head of product policy, Monika Bickert, said the site was doing all it could, but that technological solutions were in short supply.

"When we think about hate speech and harassment, it's so highly contextual," Ms Bickert told the BBC.

"You might for instance have someone using a racial slur to attack a person, and that would violate our policies. [But] you might also have somebody using that slur to say 'this morning, on the subway, someone called me this word, it was upsetting'.

"We need a real person looking at it to make a decision."

On the subject of inviting in some kind of independent auditors to monitor how effective Facebook's measures against harassment are, Ms Bickert said it worked closely with outside experts.

Cultural view

Facebook's view presents a rather disheartening stalemate - no amount of technology will prevent the real problem at hand: that human beings can be horrible to each other.

But Shireen Mitchell comes at the problem from a different angle. She founded a group called Digital Sisters. It wants more diversity in technology companies, loosening the dominance of white males at most big technology firms.

"The reason that many who are in the tech industry don't know what's happening, or can't identify it, is because they're coming from a different cultural spectrum.

"If you are inclusive of women, women from different backgrounds, transgender women, women of colour, you will be able to parse out what the challenges are and get to it sooner."

This suggestion hasn't fallen on deaf ears - many technology companies are actively looking at ways to build a more diverse workforce in a manner which is targeted, rather than tokenism.

But Ms Mitchell said she felt minorities were given a tougher ladder to climb in proving their worth.

"When it comes to people of colour, they're asked to have two degrees, three degrees… but people like Mark Zuckerberg and Bill Gates - they're dropouts!"


'Disappointing'


Caroline Sinders, the person behind the original panel that led to this entire day, told the BBC she was worried about how isolated the event was from the main hub of SXSW action.

"I worry at a place like [SXSW], because it was thrown together so hastily, it was more around talking about harassment and not about solving harassment," she said.

"As opposed to saying 'everyone come over here', I think a lot of these panels would have been better situated within SXSW.

"By creating a completely separate space for an online harassment panel, we are far away, we're missing all these other people that maybe had no idea."

But, she said, she was encouraged that the issue of online harassment was at least being clearly defined.

She likened the current situation to that of domestic violence awareness campaigns in the 1970s and 80s.

By giving online harassment a name, and helping both victims and perpetrators recognise when it is occurring, real work can at least begin.
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