Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

[pErvinalia]

Trying to convince others of something is what debating is. Whether it is effective or not is another question. There's more people reading the thread than just forty two.

What does one do to influence a perceived problem? Put forward a well reasoned and evidenced (if necessary) argument. What else should one do?

[tuco]

Nothing. Debate with Forty Two without proper data. Nobody in the world knows what % are for nature/nurture thus you can debate this indefinitely. See? I am not trying to convince you of anything. I observe mostly useless debate and note it. What you could do is to take job in field dominated by females, for example. Or get your daughter blue truck instead of pink doll. Or even demand from those you interact with "gender neutral" behaviour. I do not know, I am not trying to convince anyone, I just comment. Still, it would really be interesting for me to observe how you actually behave in the light of your alleged thinking.

[pErvinalia]

You don't need to know what the exact breakdown of nature v nurture is to know that nurture has a significant effect.

[tuco]

Indeed, but when it comes to gaming industry or shopping mall, how can we tell?

Lets assume Person A will claim: There is disproportionally small number of females involved in video games, and it is because females are discriminated there. What can Person B say about this claim? Show your working out. Hence the problem I am pointing to. Its possible to talk about this indefinitely without reaching consensus because evidence is lacking. All there can be said is what you said. Significant .. OK lets assume we have number. We know for fact that females like to and want to play games as much as males do. Its 50/50 This is hypothetical consensus which will not be reached here. What now?

I wonder, how much are those debating this involved in video games themselves. I've been involved (deeply lol) for 30 years. The environment is, from my experience, as hostile to females as other environments populated mostly by one sex. Sure males are more aggressive or competitive so that translates to form but essence is the same. Anything abnormal gets noted and lets say judged. That seem natural. So what should be done about this? What are we debating? What kind of consensus we are looking for here? That is what I am asking. That is my point.

Other people read this and may change their behaviours because of evidence presented someone can formulate arguments convincing them (making them believe) of something. We can simply say .. dont be an idiot because that is the real problem not percentages.

[pErvinalia]

Why do you keep asking "what are we debating"?? I'm assuming you can read, yes?

[Forty Two]

You are debating like Seth. Go back and read what you previously wrote. When I said you were saying it was "acceptable" that this occurred, you said "no", that's a different question. But here you are at the end of the to and fro (where you tried to say you didn't compare it to anything when you did exactly that) saying that it's not a problem (i.e. it's acceptable).

In the post where you first accused me of saying it was "acceptable", I hadn't. I have since argued that it isn't a problem. "Acceptable" is not really a relevant term, and I don't know what is and isn't "acceptable." It's a very subjective term, and to some people it's acceptable and to others it is not acceptable.

When I'm addressing the issue of games, I'm saying it's not a problem because there is no barrier to anyone creating any kind of game they want to make. Sitting there telling OTHER people that they need to make games differently than they want to make them isn't identifying a problem. It's meddling in other people's business. There is nothing inherently wrong with having a game with male characters in it, or making a game with a sexy female character, or whatever. It's no different than making movies with different plots.

Nothing is stopping people from making movies and games with different plots. Make them. If the gripe is that there aren't enough women driving a market in first person shooter games to motivate a game designer to make a game more female focused, then that isn't a problem. It's just what people want. It may be "acceptable" or "unacceptable" but I don't really care which.

If one focuses on the goal of living in a free society, then I think one could conclude it is "acceptable" that people make the games they want to make, and other people make the games those other people want to make, and the gameplayers buy what games they want to buy. If one focuses on there being some goal of "social justice" where 50% of the game players of every type of game have to be female, and half the characters have to be female, and they all have to be depicted in the same manner, dressed in the same way, and portrayed in the same kinds of roles, then I guess one would conclude it's unacceptable.

The point I was trying to make to you is that if this bias is due to socially constructed gender roles (which you seem to agree), then it's not "complaining" to say that this is a manufactured state of affairs. It's a valid point and any action to address this is perfectly valid.

All culture is manufactured, in the sense of it being something people create via their conduct and interactions as a social species. However, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. We're social creatures in a sexually dimorphic species. We have a culture. Not every product has to be marketed to both men and women.

[Forty Two]

It's a bit polarised here. The fact that adult men and women make different choices about relatively unimportant things like fashion or computer games should not become an issue for feminists, other than the obsessive ones, to worry about. The important point is to have a society where it is perfectly acceptable to go against the majority trend without raising too many eyebrows.

Don't people have the right to raise their eyebrows at what they dislike? I mean, I have a right to show up for work wearing a tuxedo shirt and a banana hammock, but is it some sort of "problem" that people might raise their eyebrows at my eccentric dress?

In these areas, most western societies have achieved that to a fair degree - no one worries about women who wear suits, or like playing violent video games, and blokes are more able than in the past to do stuff like being house husbands etc. Certainly these freedoms do not exist to nearly the same extent in most of the muslim world, for example...

As long as people are free to do what they please in this regard, other people's opinions on those things are just their opinions, man.

However, where there is real and often insidious pressure on children, the issue of sexism and conditioned gender roles is still worth discussing. There are still plenty of girls that would never be given toy trucks, and boys who are never given dolls, long before they have a clear preference either way (probably less now than in the past, to be fair...).

Sure, everyone can discuss whatever they want. What I oppose are the crackpots who are looking to impose systemic rules which would compel different behaviors. It's like the Anita Sarkeesians of the world propose - the creation of new systems which people will have to conform to. Fuck that. Nobody has to conform to the current social norms, and I oppose them getting the UN or other governmental entities to control thought, expression and/or social conduct to achieve some social justice goal of making sure that female characters are 50% of the video game characters or that their butts are portrayed in a manner acceptable to extremist feminists.

Nobody has to give pink things to girls or blue things to boys, but parents have the right to raise their kids. If folks want to talk about and argue the merits of giving trucks to girls and Barbie dolls to boys, then fine. Where I have a problem is when they start looking to compel these things.

[tuco]

Why do you keep asking "what are we debating"?? I'm assuming you can read, yes?

Simply because I do not understand it. Is there anything you want to know on topic? I will tell you. Do you want to just bicker on topic? Sure, just tell me. I do not want to bicker. There is no "new" information you bring so that is what I do not get. Convince others is what debate is about? lol Yeah that kinda explains it actually. Just forget it.

[Forty Two]

I'll have a crack, though.

Negative gender roles are reenforced by toys and gameas and other parts of popular culture.

This you'll have to substantiate with a citation. Are gender roles necessarily negative, or are you referring to certain gender roles which are negative (other roles being positive)?

Is a culture which involves different, say, manners of dress between men and women necessarily negative? Would it be positive if we all wore the same types of clothes regardless of sex? Women wear panties and men wear boxers/briefs -- is that negative? Would it be positive if men and women all wore silk thong panties or all wore boxer shorts?

This is a problem if you agree that boys are encouraged by culture to *be* something (like a builder, or a fireman, or a doctor etc) and girls are encouraged to *look like* something (i.e. Barbie guff).

It seems to me that society is more complex than this, and girls are encouraged to be far more than that. That would explain why women are like 60% of the college students and have been for a generation.

[Forty Two]

Why do you keep asking "what are we debating"?? I'm assuming you can read, yes?

Simply because I do not understand it. Is there anything you want to know on topic? I will tell you. Do you want to just bicker on topic? Sure, just tell me. I do not want to bicker. There is no "new" information you bring so that is what I do not get. Convince others is what debate is about? lol Yeah that kinda explains it actually. Just forget it.

What do you think the thread is about?

[tuco]

I dunno that is why I was asking. To me it appears like low-level bickering remotely on topic. I posted right after this post:

You are debating like Seth. Go back and read what you previously wrote. When I said you were saying it was "acceptable" that this occurred, you said "no", that's a different question. But here you are at the end of the to and fro (where you tried to say you didn't compare it to anything when you did exactly that) saying that it's not a problem (i.e. it's acceptable).

The point I was trying to make to you is that if this bias is due to socially constructed gender roles (which you seem to agree), then it's not "complaining" to say that this is a manufactured state of affairs. It's a valid point and any action to address this is perfectly valid.

I think its complaining and I do not think its complaining .. wtf? Everyone thinks, hopefully, something, but so what? How is that relevant? Why should I care? Why should anyone care?

[Forty Two]

I dunno that is why I was asking.

The main question is why does sexism persist in the video game industry?

To me it appears like low-lever bickering remotely on topic. I posted right after this post:

You are debating like Seth. Go back and read what you previously wrote. When I said you were saying it was "acceptable" that this occurred, you said "no", that's a different question. But here you are at the end of the to and fro (where you tried to say you didn't compare it to anything when you did exactly that) saying that it's not a problem (i.e. it's acceptable).

The point I was trying to make to you is that if this bias is due to socially constructed gender roles (which you seem to agree), then it's not "complaining" to say that this is a manufactured state of affairs. It's a valid point and any action to address this is perfectly valid.

I think its complaining and I do not think its complaining .. wtf? Everyone thinks, hopefully, something, but so what? How is that relevant? Why should I care? Why should anyone care?

You missed the distinction regarding "complaining." Ultimately, the issue I was making was not about "complaining" - I was comparing the issue of sexism in video games (protagonists being male, males and females dressed differently, sexy female characters, depictions of buttocks, etc.) to the "sexism" in other products. Lipsticks designed for women - skirts sold to women and not men -- women being the focus of most ads for cosmetics and such.

I am not making the argument that this must be "natural" or genetic aspects of men and women. I acknowledge that there may be a large factor that is cultural and that cultures may be different. However, I am not of the view that having a culture where men tend to do X and women tend to do Y is some sort of "problem" that needs to be fixed or that such tendencies are per se "negative." As long as people are free to do as they please in these areas, then I do not see why there ought to be systemic efforts to make sure that they don't.

[tuco]

Because it persists elsewhere in society. Anything else?

[Forty Two]

Well, yes, because the question obviously involves details -- what are the sexist aspects of video games? What can or should be done about it? And, a host of other issues in the penumbra of main issue.

Your point, of it existing elsewhere, is a short summation of what I was discussion -- there are many areas of consumer products which involve distinctions between men and women. Is that necessarily "sexism" -- i.e. are all distinctions based on sex "sexist?" Like, is it "sexist" for clothing designers to make dresses primarily for women? If not, then does it have to be "sexist" for game designers to make their games primarily for men?

[tuco]

I do not see anyone debating sexist aspects of video games here.

This is second post here:

Without reading the OP, let alone the article or anything on this topic, or knowing very much about this subject at all, I'd expect it's because males overwhelmingly make up the majority of gamers. And gamers are probably more likely to be detached from real life and real women, and hence think of women as fictional characters to begin with. That last idea may not be based on any evidence at all..

Basically .. I know nothing but I think .. cool story bro. That was really useful. Like asking random stranger. And when I cite relevant information, you for example and as I noted already completely disregard it and carry on with what you .. think.

Shall I quote other posts? On those other aspects.