Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

For discussion of video games, and their theory and practice, as well as the social impact of such.
Post Reply
User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 12992
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:46 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight.
Feel free to post or describe the data. Posting a link to a video is not YOUR contribution. It's Mr. Gaider's contribution. If YOU have a contribution, then you'll post your discussion OF the data -- what data did Mr. Gaider highlight? How does it relate to the topic. Saying "here, look at this video and it has data and insight" is not a substantial contribution to the discussion.
:this:

(jeez, this character has even got me agreeing with you. something must be really fucked up :lol: )
Image
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:48 pm

Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:Bah I am not good at what you suggest. If I was I would not be here. What females want and do not want .. that is kind of pointless because how could we know? We ask them, then debate why they do not want which is impossible to prove as it will boil down to nature vs nurture as noted already.
It's no harder to determine what the female consumer wants than what the male consumer wants. Whether that's a product of culture or some evolved biological imperative, or a combination of the two, is a different issue.

We can see, for example, that women are the primary market for diamond necklaces and other jewelry. Go to a mall and look in the jewelry stores, the products for men are very limited in comparison to the products for women. When men wear jewelry, it's typically a watch, a wedding band, and in some areas a necklace or a bracelet (but those are smaller demographics). Overwhelmingly, it is women who are the market for pendents, rings, necklaces, bracelets, anklets and the like. It's not even close. Is this "sexism?" Do women want jewelry more than men want jewelry?

As a man, have I just been culturally conditioned to not want jewelry as much? To not value it as much? Even if that's the case, is it a problem? Should we be lobbying jewelry developers to be more inclusive of and inviting to men? Maybe their marketing campaigns need to be modified to show more men wearing jewelry and getting all swoony over gifts of jewelry? Maybe developers need to make more "male-focused" items that are not so feminine, so that men will become enamoured with jewels and jewelry too? And, maybe we should enforce a new custom where both men and women give gifts of jewelry for Valentines Day and engagements, etc.?

Take the flower market. Men generally don't buy flowers, except to give them to women. Floral bouquets are made to appeal to women more than men. Is this is this a problem that needs solving? Is it sexism? Do we need to develop marketing campaigns that florists have to follow to invite men to be consumers of flowers (other than to buy them as gifts for women)? Do we need to make Valentines Day a day when men get flowers too?

tuco wrote: We can debate facts. For Bioware 30% of customers is significant. What is the opposite of overwhelming, insignificant?
A supermajority is, to me, overwhelming. If you have a vote in Parliament, and you get a supermajority on a piece of legislation, then I think it certainly is thought to have passed overwhelmingly. 70% is a lot more than a supermajority. And, 30% of gaming consumers does not equal 30% of all games. How does having some games that are almost exclusively dominated by male players a "problem" any more than having a market for eyeshadow and skin creams be overwhelmingly female?
tuco wrote: btw who talks about GTA in particular?
It's one of the games most often cited for "problematic" depictions of females.
tuco wrote: I am sure there are data about GTA and they probably support your argument but so what? The argument is not (is it?) that game aimed at male audience lack female characters thus are sexist.
That is precisely a very common argument made by feminists.
tuco wrote: The argument is that video-games are historically, as any others field in question lol nobody cares about males in nursing, dominated by males thus could be considered as "hostile" environment with regards of privilege and power, its changing, and we can examine how its changing. Should be done should not be done, is right is wrong .. that is not debate about the phenomena, that is philosophical debate.
Both the phenomenon and the philosophical issues are open to discussion.

I agree, videogames were historically dominated by male players. When games first came out, they were pong-like games. Tennis. Hockey. You had a line on one side, and a line on the other, and a pixel floated across the screen and you tried to bounce it back and forth. It was, for some reason, a type of game that was dominated by male players. No characters. Just competitive game play - trying to score goals or points. Then came some adventure games, like Oregon Trail, and Zork, and Star Trek on platforms like the TRS-80 and all that. Computer games, though, no matter how pixelated and non-character driven -- they were played by men. Why? I don't know why women don't like them, but other than that women were not interested in playing "pong" and "Oregon Trail" -- why did they not play them in anywhere near the numbers that men and boys did? Was it a problem?

Same thing with the arcade generation -- Asteroids, Space Invaders, etc. -- vastly male in consumer base. Why? Was it a problem?

The history of video games doesn't really paint a picture of women being in some way excluded from games. What would "include" women in Asteroids? Different colors? A bow on the spaceship? What? Is it the play that's the problem -- i.e. a spaceship shooting at rocks and blowing them up for points? What's sexist about it?

Same thing with first person shooter games in the modern era like Call of Duty. Overwhelmingly male player/consumer base. Why? You don't see yourself when playing the game. Would half the soldiers need to be women or something? What's the issue? Is it the gameplay -- i.e. strategically or tactically moving around and pretending to kill enemy soldiers? What's sexist about it?

It does boil down to individual games, because the industry is a collection of products. So, it's not really fair to point to the industry and say "only 30% of players are women, therefore, it's sexist." To reach the conclusion, we have to find that only 30% of the players are women BECAUSE the games available to play are sexist, and women only play the few that aren't (excepting the small number of brave women who are out there playing the really sexist video games and enduring the sexism...).

See what I mean?
I quote it whole now to show I've read it.

Alright, overwhelmingly was justified, my bad. You make valid points, I tend to agree with and basically have not much to add. Only because there is no 50/50 ratio for both sexes in video-games does not mean they are sexist. Lets say 10% of females play GTA. Should GTA X accommodate them since previous 9 were for males? This is not what I am interested however. I am interested in "how it works". If developers let themselves be pressured by interest groups, vocal minority, and in my experience they do as feedback comes from those vocal ones, there is nothing I want to do about it. Its their business. Same goes for interest groups, its their right to be vocal and either criticize or even demand. As I said, I do not pay much attention to them and it mattes to me not if virtual character is male or female as I tend to create females and if not available I do not care.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 12992
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:21 pm

I agree that people have a right to protest video games in whatever way they want to. That's their right. It's also my right to say that such protests are stupid and wrongheaded.

The issue for me is that the activists tend to want to go beyond mere advocacy or protest. They want social justice (in this case some kind of equality in video game characters) enforced through legal mechanisms.

I am also a liberal, and as a liberal I don't generally support intolerance and meddling in other people's private affairs. I view no-platforming, and such conduct as illiberal (even if people have a right to do it), and I view folks like Sarkeesian and the rest of the "sexism in video games" gang as being very illiberal. Instead of developing games or a gaming industry focused on women, they want to compel video game manufacturers to change to suit their needs. I find that to be illiberal.

It's the kind of illiberality of a person who doesn't want to associate with gay people. I think people have every right not to associate with gay people if they want, but it's very illiberal to use sexual orientation as a decision point in who one associates with. Same is true for atheism -- everyone has a right to be against atheism, but if someone says "I won't vote for an atheist" I think that's very illiberal, and I oppose it (even though they have every right to vote based on their religion or revulsion toward atheism).

So, yes, they have every right to behave illiberally -- but when they do, I oppose them.
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 3:36 pm

They want to punish those making them uncomfortable either with hope that such punishment will deter from furthering discomfort or just because they believe in deserved punishment. It is your right to oppose them, to defend your freedom or whatever. The reoccurring motive here, I do not see taking in to consideration, is that: a) as classic says, when fighting monsters beware not to become one b) feeding trolls is considered to be bad to allow for more trolling c) does it really bother you to grant investment of time and energy which could be spent elsewhere. I do understand, however, that people are different, have different priorities, need and feelings. Just this philosophical or moral side of the issue seems to be the so-called first world issue aka non-issue. The phenomena, how it works, on what basis, case studies, etc is also non-issue because its not about the issue its about understanding.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 12992
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:03 pm

It's an important issue because of the way this mindset is infecting various areas in our culture and society. It's not just limited to video games. Look at the nonsense at Rutgers University last week, where folks sharing this same ideology tried to no-platform Milo Yiannopolis for the crime of espousing different political opinions than them.... on a college campus.... you get this safe space, triggerwarning-happy jerks who are using the same type of ideological approach not only in video games, but on college campuses, infecting the college educational environment with their nonsense. They are using the same strategy in many other areas of life, one after the other, applying their "class theory" of identity politics to propel their agenda.

The reason I have an interest in it is because it is a much more serious issue than whether Grand Theft Auto appeals to women.
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:44 pm

We are talking through each other it seems. How is it more serious? If you just play games and do not follow social media with where social warriors and their anti-parts operate, how does it affect you? If you are not sexist yourself, what does it matter if virtual characters are this or that?

If you believe that without action the video-game industry will become I dunno what .. politically correct in some way? .. then it would be naive to think that business will not follow the money so to say. If you fear that political correctness will become trend in society ~ the money, trend you do not like, then well yes I can see how it could be considered serious. Then again, it would depend on particulars. Not being able to post sexist stuff on gaming forum or having 50/50 ratio fe/male on character creation screen or not being able to rape and beat men in games. Its the details which matter. Tell me one.

If you are involved in video-game industry professionally, if you have business interests, then it is indeed serious. In such case I would listen to Mr Gaider not Miss Anita.

User avatar
Forty Two
Posts: 12992
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:01 pm
About me: I identify as sexually arousing to women.
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 7:56 pm

tuco wrote:We are talking through each other it seems. How is it more serious? If you just play games and do not follow social media with where social warriors and their anti-parts operate, how does it affect you? If you are not sexist yourself, what does it matter if virtual characters are this or that?
The characters aren't the problem. It's the social justice warriors infecting the gaming industry, like many other areas of life (I mentioned colleges) that are the problem. Their ideology is pernicious, illiberal and authoritarian.
tuco wrote:
If you believe that without action the video-game industry will become I dunno what .. politically correct in some way?
I said nothing of the kind. What are you talking about?

tuco wrote: .. then it would be naive to think that business will not follow the money so to say. If you fear that political correctness will become trend in society ~ the money, trend you do not like, then well yes I can see how it could be considered serious. Then again, it would depend on particulars. Not being able to post sexist stuff on gaming forum or having 50/50 ratio fe/male on character creation screen or not being able to rape and beat men in games. Its the details which matter. Tell me one.
I've not said there is something about video games that needs to be changed. I don't "fear" political correctness. I oppose it in its most pernicious form, as fascism disguised as manners. I oppose most any such groups.

"Feminists want to control your language. Feminists want to tell you how to talk.
And their not alone. Their not alone. I'm not picking on the feminists." - George Carlin.

That's the problem. These so-called Social Justice folks are almost always looking to control language -- to control expression.
tuco wrote:
If you are involved in video-game industry professionally, if you have business interests, then it is indeed serious. In such case I would listen to Mr Gaider not Miss Anita.
I am happy to listen to them both.
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:05 pm

Get vaccination, wont get infected. Tho you sound like you are already :P Everyone has a cause, its alright.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 46775
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:09 am

tuco wrote:Well, I am cooperative
:funny:

You're shitting me, right??
but not friendly I guess. To be honest, I dunno what is to be friendly.
That much is obvious. Although, for the life of me I can't understand how someone doesn't know what it means to be friendly.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:45 am

I am not shitting you. I play tit for tat however. Sometime tit for two tats. Being cooperative means to work together for common goal. It does not mean being friendly. I can cooperate with Nazi or Commie, I do not care when it comes to cooperation, like debating certain topic. The evidence is here in this thread. With Forty Two I have no problem to cooperate. S/he plays by rules of adult, intelligent and educated debate. Those who do not, do tit, get tat. Its that simple.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 46775
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:48 am

Says the guy who has ad hommed pretty much everyone he has interacted significantly with on this forum so far, including 42. :roll:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 11:53 am

Like whom? You lol I told you, you are a star and more importantly retaliation was in order. I already explained that personal insults do not constitute problem in my book just like its no problem in your book to talk shit about stuff you are ignorant about.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 46775
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:18 pm

Personal attacks are against the rules. And they aren't what one would call the pinnacle of adult intelligent conversation. I don't even know why I'm bothering with this. You don't seem to understand the words you yourself use (let alone mine).
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

tuco
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:30 pm
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:38 pm

I know that. I need to live with myself not with your rules. You do not respect me, I do not respect you. You constantly attack me on my command of English for example. I can communicate with some people without much problems regarding this. What do you expect? I will retaliate, according to my rules not yours. I do not give a flying fuck if you ban me or suspend me. I do not want to insult you further by explaining why it does not bother me to be unwanted here.

User avatar
pErvinalia
Off his meds
Posts: 46775
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:49 pm

I'm merely pointing out your hypocrisy and the vacuous-ness of your "arguments".
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests