Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:56 pm

Two-liners with you, yes. Anything more is wasted.

Maybe you could sum up this Gaider's argument? I don't have the download quota to watch random videos. I can't say I was particularly interested from what you quoted of him. Didn't seem to offer much insight at all. Perhaps you could quote some of the other allegedly brilliant points he raises?
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:01 pm

tuco wrote:I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight.
Feel free to post or describe the data. Posting a link to a video is not YOUR contribution. It's Mr. Gaider's contribution. If YOU have a contribution, then you'll post your discussion OF the data -- what data did Mr. Gaider highlight? How does it relate to the topic. Saying "here, look at this video and it has data and insight" is not a substantial contribution to the discussion.
tuco wrote: Nobody else here demonstrated insight nor produced data. For you and others "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" is the only thing you need to know because its no point to pretend you want to know more, you want to understand the phenomena, while ignoring insight and data and debating what those who know shit about the issue think.

This rhetorical device means what then? You are like very friendly here? Or very friendly to atheist?
Again, pomposity and condescension is what you bring to the conversation. Now, you declare that you and only you are interested in understanding the phenomenon. We ignore data and insight, but not you. You are the adult having a conversation. LOL.

To understand the rhetorical device you have to juxtapose the meanings of "friendly" and "rabid" (mostly). Puzzle it out, smarty pants.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:01 pm

fuckit. Let's dissect some of this nonsense. Getting a bit tired of you claiming some intellectual advantage in this argument while simultaneously posting nonsense like I've already highlighted and like below:
tuco wrote:Because it persists in society and because it "works" or perhaps rather because its believed to work.
What is "it works" supposed to mean? Answer some questions.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:02 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Two-liners with you, yes. Anything more is wasted.

Maybe you could sum up this Gaider's argument? I don't have the download quota to watch random videos. I can't say I was particularly interested from what you quoted of him. Didn't seem to offer much insight at all. Perhaps you could quote some of the other allegedly brilliant points he raises?
I listened to the video, and he didn't explore much that I would call "data." I'd like tuco to highlight or pinpoint the "data" that Gaider cited to.

And you have a "download quota?" Weird.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:08 pm

Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:54 pm

Bah I am not good at what you suggest. If I was I would not be here. What females want and do not want .. that is kind of pointless because how could we know? We ask them, then debate why they do not want which is impossible to prove as it will boil down to nature vs nurture as noted already.

We can debate facts. For Bioware 30% of customers is significant. What is the opposite of overwhelming, insignificant? btw who talks about GTA in particular? I am sure there are data about GTA and they probably support your argument but so what? The argument is not (is it?) that game aimed at male audience lacking female characters is sexist. The argument is that video-games are historically, as any other field in question lol nobody cares about males in nursing, dominated by males thus could be considered as "hostile" environment with regards to privilege and power, its changing, and we can examine how its changing. Should be done should not be done, is right is wrong .. that is not debate about the phenomena, that is philosophical debate.
Last edited by tuco on Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:09 pm

Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight.
Feel free to post or describe the data. Posting a link to a video is not YOUR contribution. It's Mr. Gaider's contribution. If YOU have a contribution, then you'll post your discussion OF the data -- what data did Mr. Gaider highlight? How does it relate to the topic. Saying "here, look at this video and it has data and insight" is not a substantial contribution to the discussion.
:this:

(jeez, this character has even got me agreeing with you. something must be really fucked up :lol: )
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:10 pm

Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Two-liners with you, yes. Anything more is wasted.

Maybe you could sum up this Gaider's argument? I don't have the download quota to watch random videos. I can't say I was particularly interested from what you quoted of him. Didn't seem to offer much insight at all. Perhaps you could quote some of the other allegedly brilliant points he raises?
I listened to the video, and he didn't explore much that I would call "data." I'd like tuco to highlight or pinpoint the "data" that Gaider cited to.

And you have a "download quota?" Weird.
Yes. I'm poor. And Australia is shit by 1st world standards for internet.
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"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"You know you blokes didn't criticize Obama. You're lying. - Forty Two. Umm - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=42144

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:16 pm

Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight.
Feel free to post or describe the data. Posting a link to a video is not YOUR contribution. It's Mr. Gaider's contribution. If YOU have a contribution, then you'll post your discussion OF the data -- what data did Mr. Gaider highlight? How does it relate to the topic. Saying "here, look at this video and it has data and insight" is not a substantial contribution to the discussion.
tuco wrote: Nobody else here demonstrated insight nor produced data. For you and others "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" is the only thing you need to know because its no point to pretend you want to know more, you want to understand the phenomena, while ignoring insight and data and debating what those who know shit about the issue think.

This rhetorical device means what then? You are like very friendly here? Or very friendly to atheist?
Again, pomposity and condescension is what you bring to the conversation. Now, you declare that you and only you are interested in understanding the phenomenon. We ignore data and insight, but not you. You are the adult having a conversation. LOL.

To understand the rhetorical device you have to juxtapose the meanings of "friendly" and "rabid" (mostly). Puzzle it out, smarty pants.
Mr Gaider contribution is the best contribution we can get here. That is probability close to certainty. My contribution lol what could I say better than Mr Gaider? Yeah I could say what I think lol like it matters. He is expert with years of insider experience. He presents data and brings many points to the table. In adult, intelligent and educated manner. Its not gonna get better than that. I made you aware of it and if you do not value it there is nothing I can do.

What does it imply, friendly rabid atheist (mostly)? What kind of people are here? Chit-chat people?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:21 pm

So it appears that the much revered "data" is this 30% figure. Which nicely aligns with my expectation expressed in my first post; a post that tuco has been incessantly whining about now for pages. :fp:

So, tell us, T, what is the great insight this 30% gives us? Or in language you are more likely to understand: Who gives a fuck?
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:24 pm

tuco wrote: What does it imply, friendly rabid atheist (mostly)? What kind of people are here? Chit-chat people?
(Largely) friendly people with a twisted sense of humour. People who are friendly up to a point, but don't generally suffer bores. Something which I think you are now experiencing first hand... :coffee:
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:29 pm

Well, I am cooperative but not friendly I guess. To be honest, I dunno what is to be friendly. Like help each other? Or dont confront each other?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:33 pm

tuco wrote:Bah I am not good at what you suggest. If I was I would not be here. What females want and do not want .. that is kind of pointless because how could we know? We ask them, then debate why they do not want which is impossible to prove as it will boil down to nature vs nurture as noted already.
It's no harder to determine what the female consumer wants than what the male consumer wants. Whether that's a product of culture or some evolved biological imperative, or a combination of the two, is a different issue.

We can see, for example, that women are the primary market for diamond necklaces and other jewelry. Go to a mall and look in the jewelry stores, the products for men are very limited in comparison to the products for women. When men wear jewelry, it's typically a watch, a wedding band, and in some areas a necklace or a bracelet (but those are smaller demographics). Overwhelmingly, it is women who are the market for pendents, rings, necklaces, bracelets, anklets and the like. It's not even close. Is this "sexism?" Do women want jewelry more than men want jewelry?

As a man, have I just been culturally conditioned to not want jewelry as much? To not value it as much? Even if that's the case, is it a problem? Should we be lobbying jewelry developers to be more inclusive of and inviting to men? Maybe their marketing campaigns need to be modified to show more men wearing jewelry and getting all swoony over gifts of jewelry? Maybe developers need to make more "male-focused" items that are not so feminine, so that men will become enamoured with jewels and jewelry too? And, maybe we should enforce a new custom where both men and women give gifts of jewelry for Valentines Day and engagements, etc.?

Take the flower market. Men generally don't buy flowers, except to give them to women. Floral bouquets are made to appeal to women more than men. Is this is this a problem that needs solving? Is it sexism? Do we need to develop marketing campaigns that florists have to follow to invite men to be consumers of flowers (other than to buy them as gifts for women)? Do we need to make Valentines Day a day when men get flowers too?

tuco wrote: We can debate facts. For Bioware 30% of customers is significant. What is the opposite of overwhelming, insignificant?
A supermajority is, to me, overwhelming. If you have a vote in Parliament, and you get a supermajority on a piece of legislation, then I think it certainly is thought to have passed overwhelmingly. 70% is a lot more than a supermajority. And, 30% of gaming consumers does not equal 30% of all games. How does having some games that are almost exclusively dominated by male players a "problem" any more than having a market for eyeshadow and skin creams be overwhelmingly female?
tuco wrote: btw who talks about GTA in particular?
It's one of the games most often cited for "problematic" depictions of females.
tuco wrote: I am sure there are data about GTA and they probably support your argument but so what? The argument is not (is it?) that game aimed at male audience lack female characters thus are sexist.
That is precisely a very common argument made by feminists.
tuco wrote: The argument is that video-games are historically, as any others field in question lol nobody cares about males in nursing, dominated by males thus could be considered as "hostile" environment with regards of privilege and power, its changing, and we can examine how its changing. Should be done should not be done, is right is wrong .. that is not debate about the phenomena, that is philosophical debate.
Both the phenomenon and the philosophical issues are open to discussion.

I agree, videogames were historically dominated by male players. When games first came out, they were pong-like games. Tennis. Hockey. You had a line on one side, and a line on the other, and a pixel floated across the screen and you tried to bounce it back and forth. It was, for some reason, a type of game that was dominated by male players. No characters. Just competitive game play - trying to score goals or points. Then came some adventure games, like Oregon Trail, and Zork, and Star Trek on platforms like the TRS-80 and all that. Computer games, though, no matter how pixelated and non-character driven -- they were played by men. Why? I don't know why women don't like them, but other than that women were not interested in playing "pong" and "Oregon Trail" -- why did they not play them in anywhere near the numbers that men and boys did? Was it a problem?

Same thing with the arcade generation -- Asteroids, Space Invaders, etc. -- vastly male in consumer base. Why? Was it a problem?

The history of video games doesn't really paint a picture of women being in some way excluded from games. What would "include" women in Asteroids? Different colors? A bow on the spaceship? What? Is it the play that's the problem -- i.e. a spaceship shooting at rocks and blowing them up for points? What's sexist about it?

Same thing with first person shooter games in the modern era like Call of Duty. Overwhelmingly male player/consumer base. Why? You don't see yourself when playing the game. Would half the soldiers need to be women or something? What's the issue? Is it the gameplay -- i.e. strategically or tactically moving around and pretending to kill enemy soldiers? What's sexist about it?

It does boil down to individual games, because the industry is a collection of products. So, it's not really fair to point to the industry and say "only 30% of players are women, therefore, it's sexist." To reach the conclusion, we have to find that only 30% of the players are women BECAUSE the games available to play are sexist, and women only play the few that aren't (excepting the small number of brave women who are out there playing the really sexist video games and enduring the sexism...).

See what I mean?
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:33 pm

tuco wrote:Well, I am cooperative but not friendly I guess. To be honest, I dunno what is to be friendly. Like help each other? Or dont confront each other?
It's not a rule. It's a motto, FFS.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:43 pm

tuco wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight.
Feel free to post or describe the data. Posting a link to a video is not YOUR contribution. It's Mr. Gaider's contribution. If YOU have a contribution, then you'll post your discussion OF the data -- what data did Mr. Gaider highlight? How does it relate to the topic. Saying "here, look at this video and it has data and insight" is not a substantial contribution to the discussion.
tuco wrote: Nobody else here demonstrated insight nor produced data. For you and others "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" is the only thing you need to know because its no point to pretend you want to know more, you want to understand the phenomena, while ignoring insight and data and debating what those who know shit about the issue think.

This rhetorical device means what then? You are like very friendly here? Or very friendly to atheist?
Again, pomposity and condescension is what you bring to the conversation. Now, you declare that you and only you are interested in understanding the phenomenon. We ignore data and insight, but not you. You are the adult having a conversation. LOL.

To understand the rhetorical device you have to juxtapose the meanings of "friendly" and "rabid" (mostly). Puzzle it out, smarty pants.
Mr Gaider contribution is the best contribution we can get here. That is probability close to certainty. My contribution lol what could I say better than Mr Gaider? Yeah I could say what I think lol like it matters. He is expert with years of insider experience. He presents data and brings many points to the table. In adult, intelligent and educated manner. Its not gonna get better than that. I made you aware of it and if you do not value it there is nothing I can do.
So, make a point based on Gaider's information and data. I.e. - Gaider presented the following important information/data _____________________________________________ . Assuming that data/information to be true and accurate, we can conclude the following from it: _______________________________________.
tuco wrote:
What does it imply, friendly rabid atheist (mostly)? What kind of people are here? Chit-chat people?
What do you think it implies?

What's a chit-chat person? Is chit-chat a bad thing? Must all conversation be about non-trivial matters? In general conversation, I've found that a good mix of serious discussion and chit-chat is rather nice. I think this forum has had entire discussions that have lasted for months involving goofball parodies of real issues. This forum has also had extensive political discussions on various elections and legal issues in the US, UK, Oz, NZ, Ireland, Germany, France and many other jurisdictions. There are serious discussions on climate change, abortion, guns and gun control, eligibility to be President of the United States, free speech in Canada, feminism, atheism, various religions, etc., and there have also been discussions on Donald Rump's Warning About the Muslin Problem, the untimely death of Lemmy Kilmister, whether Stonehenge was built in the 1950s, and the Clinton Huxley Email Scandal.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:44 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Two-liners with you, yes. Anything more is wasted.

Maybe you could sum up this Gaider's argument? I don't have the download quota to watch random videos. I can't say I was particularly interested from what you quoted of him. Didn't seem to offer much insight at all. Perhaps you could quote some of the other allegedly brilliant points he raises?
I listened to the video, and he didn't explore much that I would call "data." I'd like tuco to highlight or pinpoint the "data" that Gaider cited to.

And you have a "download quota?" Weird.
Yes. I'm poor. And Australia is shit by 1st world standards for internet.
You ought to move to a civilized country. :{D
"Every socialistic type of government… produces bad art, produces social inertia, produces really unhappy people, and it's more repressive than any other kind of government." Frank Zappa.

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