Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:11 am

tuco wrote:I already noted your first post which is chit-chat post without doubt .. I know nothing (thus can contribute nothing) but I think (I chit-chat)
Non-sequitur. That's Latin for: your bullshit reply is unrelated to the post it was responding too. The majority of my posts (other than having the world's most annoying meta-argument with some guy who communicates in pigeon English) have been with 42 regarding the issue highlighted in the post you are responding too.

In addition, regardless of whether my first post in the thread was opinion or fact, it was a reasoned reply. Even though I wasn't working from any known data, doesn't mean my reasoning was wrong. If you think it was wrong, then address it directly. It will give you something to do besides constantly whining.

.. lets look at other posters:
laklak wrote:Because if there were good looking female characters all the boyos would be wanking instead of playing.
macdoc wrote:
Is creating female video game characters too much work?
Too many breaks as they go wank in the john after working on her. :smoke:
VazScep wrote:
"Female bone structure is just different," says Joe Ubisoft. "Are there spiders in there? We just don't know."
— creeping horror (@redfivetwo)
:rofl:

I'd rather see the question asked "why does peurile derivative wank persist in the video games industry?", which I reckon covers all these games.
and I could go on and on quoting
Please don't. All this babbling from you is irrelevant bullshit. I never said there was no chit-chat in the thread, so why the fuck are you even quoting this stuff?? :think:
Your remarks about my English keep me cool. My IQ stays 137 regardless of how my command of English is.
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Actually I guess you speak only English, hence the difficulty of your brain to comprehend anything out of norm.
You know fuck all about me, Mr ad hom. Where's your adult intelligent conversation, chief? You've spent most of your time here on this forum ad homming everyone.

Look, it's not our problem your English is a bit lacking. It's just a fact of reality. The problem is with your ego in thinking that we should just take your murdering of the English language as evidence of anything other than you murdering the English language. What would you have us do? If you couldn't understand someone writing in broken Czech, would you just agree with everything they say despite the fact that you have little idea what they are saying other than the fact that they are clearly attacking you?
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:14 am

Babbling irrelevant bullshit by presenting evidence (of small talk) quoting others :) I give you advice. Be nice to Seth, and others like him, because I am not willing to chit-chat with you.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:19 am

I just told you that no one is claiming that there is no chit-chat on this forum or this thread. So ONCE AGAIN, why the fuck are you bringing this up? This is why it is babbling. You are erecting retarded strawmen and then flailing at them impotently.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by rachelbean » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:39 am

tuco wrote:Indeed, the purpose if this forum seems to be chit-chat. And indeed I did not know that. Do you have some kind of mission statement? Rationalia, we are here to chit-chat. I would not register.
No, just a tagline: friendly rabid atheists (mostly). You know, it might not hurt to learn something about a forum before joining and then complaining that it's not what you expected. :coffee:
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:56 am

Complaining is not against rules as far as I know but fair enough that is good point. Friendly rabid .. I do not what it means, what it implies. Wanna chit-chat who am I to tell otherwise, indeed. Just .. it makes little sense to me but that is my problem.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 12:57 pm

tuco wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
tuco wrote:Many and none of your concern. Cmon, does it really take so much of whatever to act like adult, intelligent and educated? If the main or sole purpose of starting threads with issues is to just chit-chat about it, then well not much for me to do but recognize it. I will not adopt it however as its not my way so to say.
It's unclear to me what you're trying to say.

If you have a contribution to the issue being discussed, then nobody is stopping you from making it.

Feel free to frame the issue or question as you understand it or see fit. We can discuss that, if you like.
My contribution to the issue is to note that what you (and others, its not personal) demonstrate is either: a) not close to reality b) not on topic c) irrelevant d) bickering e) etc Simply put, my contribution is to put the debate on course, proper course of adult, intelligent and educated debate. I posted 2 materials with data/insight. Got zero response. Figured that data/insight is not sought here and proceeded to put to you (and others) on course.
I'd be interested to know what I said that you think is "not close to reality." And, more importantly, what's your basis or explanation as to why what I said was not close to reality. What I said was certainly "on topic" because it addressed why sexism might persist in the the video game industry (or why sexism doesn't really exist in any substantial way in the video game industry, depending on definitions). Since I was "on topic" I can't be said to have posted something "irrelevant." I can't see how anything I've been posting can be said to be "bickering" unless you find the topic itself to be trivial, in which case all argument about it would be bickering. But, if your objection is that people on Rationalia are arguing over trivial issues, then you may be on the wrong forum.

If your contribution is to put the debate on course, you have failed miserably, as you haven't even suggested a course. Most everyone here has been discussing this in an adult, intelligent and educated manner. Nobody is namecalling. Nobody is employing juvenile arguments. If there is some humor injected into the debate, then that's par for Rationalia and part of the fun of the forum.

I wasn't aware of your materials with data/insight. I'll scroll back up the thread and look for it. If it's not too much trouble, if you could link to the post where your data/insight is located, I'd be pleased to respond.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:06 pm

Animavore wrote:The worst is this monstrosity from the upcoming Metal Gear Solid game.
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
The game looks like it might be great, but fuck me I'm not playing a game with a character that looks like that in it. It's embarrasing. What age are the developers? Twelve?
Maybe. Maybe they're making games for teenage boys, or players who want to play a sexy character.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:07 pm

VazScep wrote:
"Female bone structure is just different," says Joe Ubisoft. "Are there spiders in there? We just don't know."
— creeping horror (@redfivetwo)
:rofl:

I'd rather see the question asked "why does peurile derivative wank persist in the video games industry?", which I reckon covers all these games.
....because people like peurile wank material? :thinks:
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:14 pm

SteveB wrote:They say females make up half of the gamer demographic, but that doesn't mean much considering you can play Candy Crush and be considered a gamer. Now I used to be true gamer. NoTrueScotsman. I used to raid on World of Warcraft, spending like 40 hours a week killing Ragnaros and the like. I haven't gamed in a long time, though. Good riddance.
The only game I've played regularly in the last 25 years is the Command and Conquer Series. I tried WoW, but I found it to be boring and pointless. But, I'm not a fan of games with no winner/loser or outcome. WoW basically just is a continual advancement of levels, and I didn't like how you had to get permission from people to fight. Then there was the thing of people buying weapons and prizes and levels and that sort of thing. The "hacks" ruin games.

I grew up on arcade video games -- Asterioids, Zaxxon, PacMan, Galaga, Galaxians, DigDug, Q-Bert, and a variety of other games.

The developers basically stopped making the kinds of games I liked. Kids started liking more adventure style games, like Mario and Sonic the Hedgehog, where you go up level after level after level and play for hours and days, and then they went to the WoW type games and First Person Shooter games, as opposed to games I liked, like Player 1 vs. Player 2, shoot the aliens "Space Invaders" or Robotron type games. So, gaming doesn't represent me either. Oh, the humanity. Game designers need to design games I like and want to play! LOL
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:17 pm

Please do not respond.
Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yes, and you compared apparent sexism in video games to this, doofus. You are implying that it isn't really a problem.
Implying? No. Saying. I'm SAYING it's not really a problem. Because, well, it isn't. The fact that people make video games with or without female leads is not a problem. Nobody is stopping anyone from making any video game they want, and if people want a different video game, then if someone makes that different game it will sell like hotcakes.

The reality is that women don't want to play games like Grand Theft Auto, generally speaking, as the demographic of players in that realm and first person shooter games tend to be male. If there is an untapped market for female character games of that sort, then someone can make a fortune tapping into it.

Anita Sarkeesian is a prime example of the folks who bitch and complain about the content of video games, but then she admits that she doesn't even want to play those kind of games because shooting people and blowing people's heads off is "gross."
This is where I could not bear it anymore. Following your adult, intelligent and educated debate with someone who admittedly knows shit about what he talks about.

Where are your data on what kind of games females WANT to play? Generally speaking .. speaking bullshit. I posted data. Mr Gaider talks about data and insight. You, and others, make shit up and post what you think, your opinion. I personally dont care about your opinion as everyone has one and why should I care about your or any other?

I also explained Miss Sarkeesian involvement in this. She makes living by stirring this controversy and those who pay (dis-appropriate) attention to her production are part of the problem and not part of solution.

And this is bickering:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Assassin's Creed's player demographic is overwhelmingly male.

"Gaming" may be something enjoyed equally by men and women, but not all games are divided equally in terms of market.

Sexism remains in gaming for the same reason it remains in clothing and hairstyling. There is often a correlation between sex and a given market.

This is like complaining why Macy's doesn't sell cocktail dresses in the men's section.
You mean gender, not sex. And it depends on whether gender is a social construct or not.
and irrelevant at the same time. What gender vs sex (wtf is that anyway?) has to do with the issue at hand? I am sure someone could post-hoc some bullshit.

Admittedly you in particular are the only one who actually gave the topic time and energy but you ignored part of the debate and focused on another. I am not going to guess why but after developer of AAA games states that 30% of players playing their games are females and offers some insight to video-games as being "hostile" environment for females, to say stuff like you did "overwhelmingly" and "do not want to play" just to further your point or to ask me what I contributed, is fucking weak at least.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:29 pm

tuco wrote:Complaining is not against rules as far as I know but fair enough that is good point. Friendly rabid .. I do not what it means, what it implies. Wanna chit-chat who am I to tell otherwise, indeed. Just .. it makes little sense to me but that is my problem.
When you say this kind of thing, you come across as pompous and condescending. You imply that the rest of us are just engaged in an argle-bargle foofaraw. You, on the other hand, are the adult approaching the issue in a sensible, rational manner. I think you're wrong on that, because other than declare that sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large, you've really not contributed anything else than whinging on about how the rest of us are supposedly just bickering.

You do not know what the "friendly rabid" bit means? It's a rhetorical device called synoeciosis (a.k.a. discordia concors). Like, the maxim of Augustus to "hasten slowly." I know, to you, we are just a bunch of dumb cunts here, and couldn't possibly measure up to your adult conversation, so maybe you can rework the site motto so that it's more adult-like.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:36 pm

I act like pompous and condescending. And yes the rest of you ... as you said. Except you as I noted. However you are naive if you believe that by debating here you will get any other answer/insight than "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" without contribution like mine, data and insight. Nobody else here demonstrated insight nor produced data. For you and others "sexism persists in video games because it persists in society-at-large" is the only thing you need to know because its no point to pretend you want to know more, you want to understand the phenomena, while ignoring insight and data and debating what those who know shit about the issue think.

This rhetorical device means what then? You are like very friendly here? Or very friendly to atheist?

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:39 pm

tuco wrote:Please do not respond.
Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yes, and you compared apparent sexism in video games to this, doofus. You are implying that it isn't really a problem.
Implying? No. Saying. I'm SAYING it's not really a problem. Because, well, it isn't. The fact that people make video games with or without female leads is not a problem. Nobody is stopping anyone from making any video game they want, and if people want a different video game, then if someone makes that different game it will sell like hotcakes.

The reality is that women don't want to play games like Grand Theft Auto, generally speaking, as the demographic of players in that realm and first person shooter games tend to be male. If there is an untapped market for female character games of that sort, then someone can make a fortune tapping into it.

Anita Sarkeesian is a prime example of the folks who bitch and complain about the content of video games, but then she admits that she doesn't even want to play those kind of games because shooting people and blowing people's heads off is "gross."
This is where I could not bear it anymore. Following your adult, intelligent and educated debate with someone who admittedly knows shit about what he talks about.

Where are your data on what kind of games females WANT to play? Generally speaking .. speaking bullshit. I posted data. Mr Gaider talks about data and insight. You, and others, make shit up and post what you think, your opinion. I personally dont care about your opinion as everyone has one and why should I care about your or any other?

I also explained Miss Sarkeesian involvement in this. She makes living by stirring this controversy and those who pay (dis-appropriate) attention to her production are part of the problem and not part of solution.

And this is bickering:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Assassin's Creed's player demographic is overwhelmingly male.

"Gaming" may be something enjoyed equally by men and women, but not all games are divided equally in terms of market.

Sexism remains in gaming for the same reason it remains in clothing and hairstyling. There is often a correlation between sex and a given market.

This is like complaining why Macy's doesn't sell cocktail dresses in the men's section.
You mean gender, not sex. And it depends on whether gender is a social construct or not.
and irrelevant at the same time. What gender vs sex (wtf is that anyway?) has to do with the issue at hand? I am sure someone could post-hoc some bullshit.

Admittedly you in particular are the only one who actually gave the topic time and energy but you ignored part of the debate and focused on another. I am not going to guess why but after developer of AAA games states that 30% of players playing their games are females and offers some insight to video-games as being "hostile" environment for females, to say stuff like you did "overwhelmingly" and "do not want to play" just to further your point or to ask me what I contributed, is fucking weak at least.
Tell us what you really think! :lol:

And the gender vs sex thing isn't bickering. You might want to consult a dictionary as to what bickering actually is. The gender vs sex thing was right on point. I'm sorry you couldn't grasp the point.
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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by tuco » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:48 pm

About what? What I think is irrelevant, generally speaking. Anyone interested in sexism in video-games should start with the lecture from Mr Gaider I posted in my initial post. Not with Miss Anita from BBC article in OP. That is starting point for adult, intelligent and educated debate. This is what I think. Do you care? No. You do not have time to watch the lecture let alone to have subsequent debate about many points made there. You have time for two liners. I get it now.

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Re: Why does sexism persist in the video games industry?

Post by Forty Two » Mon Feb 15, 2016 1:54 pm

tuco wrote:Please do not respond.
LOL, yeah, right. Atheism Plus has an echo chamber, if that's what you're looking for.
tuco wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Yes, and you compared apparent sexism in video games to this, doofus. You are implying that it isn't really a problem.
Implying? No. Saying. I'm SAYING it's not really a problem. Because, well, it isn't. The fact that people make video games with or without female leads is not a problem. Nobody is stopping anyone from making any video game they want, and if people want a different video game, then if someone makes that different game it will sell like hotcakes.

The reality is that women don't want to play games like Grand Theft Auto, generally speaking, as the demographic of players in that realm and first person shooter games tend to be male. If there is an untapped market for female character games of that sort, then someone can make a fortune tapping into it.

Anita Sarkeesian is a prime example of the folks who bitch and complain about the content of video games, but then she admits that she doesn't even want to play those kind of games because shooting people and blowing people's heads off is "gross."
This is where I could not bear it anymore. Following your adult, intelligent and educated debate with someone who admittedly knows shit about what he talks about.
Once again, you're free to contribute the adult, intelligent and educated debate of which you refer. Why do you hesitate to do so?
tuco wrote:
Where are your data on what kind of games females WANT to play?
The demographics of the video game market. Other than that, there really isn't any data, particularly data to support the arguments of folks who claim the video game industry is sexist. The "data" offered by the Sarkeesians of the world is cherry-picking and mischaracterization of game play.

I don't see as I have a burden to show that video games are "not" sexist - I would think someone would have data to show that they are. Have we seen it? Certainly not posted here.
tuco wrote: Generally speaking .. speaking bullshit. I posted data.
You did not post "data" -- I listened to the entire video by Mr. Gaider. There's no "data" there - just assumptions.

Also, there are folks out there stating that 1/2 of all video gamers are women. If that's the case, then how can it be said by Mr. Gaider that we have to "decide how not to repel women." Clearly, if half of the industry's consumers are women, then they aren't being "repelled" in the first place. They're playing the games they like.

What are we being asked to decide how "not to repel" women from? Playing Grand Theft Auto? Are 50% of the players of GTA women? If not, do we have to modify the game so women aren't repelled from playing it? Or, is it enough that there are games that women do like to play and they play those games? Or, if 50% of GTA players are women, then are they being repelled?
tuco wrote: Mr Gaider talks about data and insight. You, and others, make shit up and post what you think, your opinion. I personally dont care about your opinion as everyone has one and why should I care about your or any other?
I have no idea why you should care. However, only an idiot would engage in a debate, over the course of weeks and dozens and dozens of posts, discussing and debating an issue they don't care about, or discussing the issue with people they feel are not seriously debating or discussing the issue. Why you would engage in a discussion with us morons for so long when you've already said we are just bickering like children, whereas you want to discuss the matter like an adult, is something you need to resolve for yourself.
tuco wrote:
I also explained Miss Sarkeesian involvement in this. She makes living by stirring this controversy and those who pay (dis-appropriate) attention to her production are part of the problem and not part of solution.
Well we're agreed on that.

So, what do you think the "problem" is? Can you define what you, the intellectual superior among us, think the problem is? Once you identify that for us, we can discuss it, and if we agree then perhaps we can discuss solutions.
tuco wrote:
And this is bickering:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Assassin's Creed's player demographic is overwhelmingly male.

"Gaming" may be something enjoyed equally by men and women, but not all games are divided equally in terms of market.

Sexism remains in gaming for the same reason it remains in clothing and hairstyling. There is often a correlation between sex and a given market.

This is like complaining why Macy's doesn't sell cocktail dresses in the men's section.
You mean gender, not sex. And it depends on whether gender is a social construct or not.
and irrelevant at the same time. What gender vs sex (wtf is that anyway?) has to do with the issue at hand? I am sure someone could post-hoc some bullshit.
It wasn't me who brought up gender vs. sex. It wasn't relevant to my point, and someone else brought it up. I'm not responsible for what other people post.
tuco wrote:
Admittedly you in particular are the only one who actually gave the topic time and energy but you ignored part of the debate and focused on another.
Well, the beauty of a discussion forum is that parts of a debate can be discussed ad hoc, or together, or both. I discussed what I was interested in and had time for. The fact that you would have preferred I said something else is not a reason to go banging on about it. The thing to do in that situation is to IDENTIFY THE PART YOU THINK IS BEING IGNORED AND DISCUSS IT.
tuco wrote:
I am not going to guess why but after developer of AAA games states that 30% of players playing their games are females and offers some insight to video-games as being "hostile" environment for females, to say stuff like you did "overwhelmingly" and "do not want to play" just to further your point or to ask me what I contributed, is fucking weak at least.
You just agreed with me. If only 30% of game players are female, then the players are 'overwhelmingly' male. I would bet that if in general the percentage of women playing games is only 30%, then the players playing GTA are even far higher percentage male than that. GTA is a violent game where players mug, kill and steal and otherwise engage in criminal behavior. If the demographic for that game is 30% female, or anywhere close to that, I'll eat my hat.

And, if saying that women don't play GTA because they don't want to is "weak," then you'll have to explain that. Are you saying they really do want to play GTA badly, but are being prevented from doing so? If so, what? If the answer is that the game play doesn't appeal to women, then what do we do about it? Must all games appeal to women?

When I was growing up, hardly any women played games like Asteroids and Space Invaders. In fact, the playing of those games was considered a nerdy thing to do, and only geeks were "into computers" back then. Women made up a very small percentage of that market. Women never really got into the shoot-em-up games like Missile Command, Defender, Robotron, Asteroids, Zaxxon, and all the rest. What's the problem? How do "we" solve it?
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