Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am

It bothers me less now that I know how much of science is absolute bullshit.

Engineers are pretty much the only non-bullshitters. The thing either does what you intended or it doesn't.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Cunt » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:21 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am
much of science is absolute bullshit.

Engineers are pretty much the only non-bullshitters.
Once again, the difference between reason and empiricism tilts in favour of reality.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by BarnettNewman » Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:01 pm

Animavore wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:53 am
I've always hated twattish art speak long before I was an atheist. And I've studied art and am a dab hand myself. I agree with Gandhi that if someone has to explain art to you it's not worth the bollocks. His exact words.
There are ways of talking about art that isn’t a bunch of bollocks. Art should primarily appeal to human emotions and discussions should revolve around that subject, other than perhaps technique. My experience in reading and writing about art is that a lot of artists are bad at talking about their work.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:33 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am
It bothers me less now that I know how much of science is absolute bullshit.
I don't agree with the proposition that any appreciable portion of science is 'absolute bullshit,' but if it comforts you somehow to think so, OK.
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am
Engineers are pretty much the only non-bullshitters. The thing either does what you intended or it doesn't.
In their own fields of expertise, perhaps. On the other hand there's that pesky Salem Hypothesis.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:55 pm

:lol: That was great. I enjoyed the comments too.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:13 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:55 pm
:lol: That was great. I enjoyed the comments too.
Did you get as far as the comment from Bruce Salem himself?
When I proposed the so-called Salem Hypothesis, it was to address the claims of a particular Christian fundamentalist who was an EE at TeKtronix in Beaverton Or, that his engineering training gave him enough expertise to weigh in on the creation-evolution debate on an equal footing with someone like myself who actually had training in geology and biology. This was in 1988, way back before the intelligent design ruse or the emergence of Islamic extremists. I argued that engineering can leave one unprepared to be competent in matters of science in a broad way, that bias and bigotry can easily cloud one's opinions because the the concentration required in many engineering tasks, and because engineering need not entail full scientific method, especially suspension of judgement against unknowns. What the discussion above suggests is that the personality traits that engineers can possess, along with incomplete training, can lead to errors in judgement that lead to scientifically untenable beliefs. I have experienced this many times. There is no better example of this than the beliefs about race and innate learning ability of Blacks expressed by William Shockley in the 1970's. Shockley invented the transister, won a Nobel Prize for that but was probably mistaken in his views about intelligence and race. The traits of engineers that get them into the most trouble, and it is why a high percentage of them are Libertarians, is that they approach stress in "fix-it" mode and go off half-cocked. The critical thought necessary for main-stream science tends to beat this rush to simple answers out of people more broadly trained in science, or used to having to suspend judgement when information is incomplete. This is not to say that all engineers have this problem. There are many people in engineering whose work is indistinguishable for good science, just as rigorous, but there are people who earned the degree who go beyond the limits of their own expertise, and it shows.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Rum » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:40 pm

Are you sure a certain Dutchman of Scottish origin didn’t write it;

“Then again, the same mindset that drives someone to engineering could predispose them to nutty ideas like creationism. Or Islamic terrorism”.

:?

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:46 pm

It's good Rum! I've always just thought engineers are assholes. I had no idea other people agreed with me, much less that someone had attempted to explain the "engineer problem"! :biggrin:

I was trolling with the science comment btw. It would be very difficult to make the case that a significant part of science is bullshit. The closest we could get to that is to say that it turns out to be wrong. But this is only superficially like the wrongness of bullshitting artsy talk.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:58 pm

I don't know if Robert Heinlein was representative of the engineer caste, but he certainly was an arsehole.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Rum » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:42 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:46 pm
It's good Rum! I've always just thought engineers are assholes. I had no idea other people agreed with me, much less that someone had attempted to explain the "engineer problem"! :biggrin:

I was trolling with the science comment btw. It would be very difficult to make the case that a significant part of science is bullshit. The closest we could get to that is to say that it turns out to be wrong. But this is only superficially like the wrongness of bullshitting artsy talk.
Well quite. There is a ‘scientific method’ after all, and while it might not always be applied rigorously, you can follow a process and if it works, repeat it.

With art, anything goes. That’s fine as long as the artist or commentary doesn’t expound utter bullshit. I suppose even then it doesn’t actually matter. It keeps quite a lot of academics busy and out of trouble I suppose.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by BarnettNewman » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:10 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:33 pm
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am
It bothers me less now that I know how much of science is absolute bullshit.
I don't agree with the proposition that any appreciable portion of science is 'absolute bullshit,' but if it comforts you somehow to think so, OK.
Sean Hayden wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:15 am
Engineers are pretty much the only non-bullshitters. The thing either does what you intended or it doesn't.
In their own fields of expertise, perhaps. On the other hand there's that pesky Salem Hypothesis.
Re, engineering belief and creationism. I’m not sure if this was true of other engineering schools but at U of Waterloo they had a great chain of being starting at God working its way through each engineering discipline and then realted discplines all the way down to slime. There is definitely an authoritarian hierarchical mindset which lends itself well to this hypothesis.

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by Cunt » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:38 pm

I just keep thinking of the comments made by Stephen Fry re: empiricism vs rationality.

Protip - rationality sounds better all the time.
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by rainbow » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:21 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:04 am
Yeah, I can't stand art speak. These people..
Clearly it challenges your preconceived worldview, and opens up a conversation that disturbs the milieu within the paradigm of experiential stasis.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein

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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by JimC » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:56 am

rEv needs to deconstruct his narrative... :tea:
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Re: Atheism and you fuckers have spoilt it all.

Post by rainbow » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:15 am

JimC wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:56 am
rEv needs to deconstruct his narrative... :tea:
... but by codifying the imagery within the Neo-Existential ambience, we may discover the true contradictions of the human condition from a Daliesque perspective.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein

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