Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:43 am

I never read the book, but I saw him talking and writing about it. It was frankly embarrassing.
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by Hermit » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:23 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:18 am
Dennet is good, but I've gone right off Harris since he lost his pretty boy looks and went all naturalistic fallacy.
Just imagine Harris debating William Lane Craig on whether there can be an objective morality without God. :hehe: Double train wreck.

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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:47 am

From this Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence ... nd_fascism
The Italian and German fascist regimes were eager to lay claim to Nietzsche's ideas, and to position themselves as inspired by them. In 1932, Nietzsche's sister, Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche, received a bouquet of roses from Adolf Hitler during a German premiere of Benito Mussolini's 100 Days, and in 1934 Hitler personally presented her with a wreath for Nietzsche's grave carrying the words "To A Great Fighter". Also in 1934, Elisabeth gave to Hitler Nietzsche's favorite walking stick, and Hitler was photographed gazing into the eyes of a white marble bust of Nietzsche.[23] Heinrich Hoffmann's popular biography Hitler as Nobody Knows Him (which sold nearly a half-million copies by 1938) featured this photo with the caption reading: "The Führer before the bust of the German philosopher whose ideas have fertilized two great popular movements: the national socialist of Germany and the fascist of Italy."
Sure, the article goes on to detail aspects of his other writings which make it clear that he was no fascist, as I clearly conceded earlier. But the whole "will to power" ethos resonated closely with aspects of the rise of fascism.
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by Hermit » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:19 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:47 am
From this Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence ... nd_fascism
The Italian and German fascist regimes were eager to lay claim to Nietzsche's ideas, and to position themselves as inspired by them. In 1932, Nietzsche's sister, Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche, received a bouquet of roses from Adolf Hitler during a German premiere of Benito Mussolini's 100 Days, and in 1934 Hitler personally presented her with a wreath for Nietzsche's grave carrying the words "To A Great Fighter". Also in 1934, Elisabeth gave to Hitler Nietzsche's favorite walking stick, and Hitler was photographed gazing into the eyes of a white marble bust of Nietzsche.[23] Heinrich Hoffmann's popular biography Hitler as Nobody Knows Him (which sold nearly a half-million copies by 1938) featured this photo with the caption reading: "The Führer before the bust of the German philosopher whose ideas have fertilized two great popular movements: the national socialist of Germany and the fascist of Italy."
Sure, the article goes on to detail aspects of his other writings which make it clear that he was no fascist, as I clearly conceded earlier. But the whole "will to power" ethos resonated closely with aspects of the rise of fascism.
It really does not. The book, Will to Power was never written by Nietzsche. It was published after his death by his sister, who was a rabid antisemite. She collated it using extracts from his unpublished notebooks and inserted bridging links that suited her prejudice. Easy enough a task when dealing with the output of someone with a fondness of expressing himself through aphorisms. They leave the gate wide open for anyone else to make what they will of what Nietzsche "really meant".

By the way, I can't stand the bloke's philosophy, but this is not the place to explain why. Now, for my favourite take on it (again):


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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:25 am

Well, I disagree that "It really does not". His philosophy has aspects which were very easy for fascist thinkers to use (the phrase "the will to power" as the most worthy human trait is enough in itself) even if his whole writings are not fascist, which is really all that I was saying...
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by Animavore » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:47 am

Well the expression "survival of the fittest" also lends itself nicely to facism. As does "...the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

No one can be blamed if another group misappropriates their language for their own ends. Nietzsche explained well enough what he meant by "will to power". It had nothing to do with facism, especially from a person who derided group mentality, and everything to do with striving to be an individual.
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by Hermit » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:00 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:25 am
Well, I disagree that "It really does not". His philosophy has aspects which were very easy for fascist thinkers to use (the phrase "the will to power" as the most worthy human trait is enough in itself) even if his whole writings are not fascist, which is really all that I was saying...
Yes, fascists did use Nietzsche's writings for their own purposes, but there is no "definite tinge of fascism" in them. Anyone who argues to the contrary is either a fascist liar or has not actually studied Nietzsche's philosophy, preferring instead to repeat opinions of others who have not actually studied Nietzsche's philosophy either.

ETA: Animavore made an excellent comment. Fascists have misused Darwin's theory of evolution in the same way. Do you think the ToE actually contains a "definite tinge of fascism" as well?

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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:06 am

Hermit wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:00 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:25 am
Well, I disagree that "It really does not". His philosophy has aspects which were very easy for fascist thinkers to use (the phrase "the will to power" as the most worthy human trait is enough in itself) even if his whole writings are not fascist, which is really all that I was saying...
Yes, fascists did use Nietzsche's writings for their own purposes, but there is no "definite tinge of fascism" in them. Anyone who argues to the contrary is either a fascist liar or has not actually studied Nietzsche's philosophy, preferring instead to repeat opinions of others who have not actually studied Nietzsche's philosophy either.

ETA: Animavore made an excellent comment. Fascists have misused Darwin's theory of evolution in the same way. Do you think the ToE actually contains a "definite tinge of fascism" as well?
Not a good comparison. Nietzsche's philosophy is clearly about humans, and it has some frankly nasty aspects which were easily seized on by right-wing thinkers. Any right wing derivatives from Darwin's ideas are much more indirect; his work has the distinction of being evidence-based science, whereas Nietzsche was making emotive/political statements disguised as philosophy...
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:07 am

Animavore wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:47 am
Well the expression "survival of the fittest" also lends itself nicely to facism. As does "...the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

No one can be blamed if another group misappropriates their language for their own ends. Nietzsche explained well enough what he meant by "will to power". It had nothing to do with facism, especially from a person who derided group mentality, and everything to do with striving to be an individual.
Sounds like a good fit for Seth... :tea:
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Re: Favourite Atheist Philosopher/Writer

Post by Animavore » Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:35 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:07 am
Animavore wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:47 am
Well the expression "survival of the fittest" also lends itself nicely to facism. As does "...the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life."

No one can be blamed if another group misappropriates their language for their own ends. Nietzsche explained well enough what he meant by "will to power". It had nothing to do with facism, especially from a person who derided group mentality, and everything to do with striving to be an individual.
Sounds like a good fit for Seth... :tea:
How so? There's nothing about Seth that makes him stand out as an individual.
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