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[Elessarina]

I'm assuming that at least some of the characters in the trailer are native Na'vi. And still all more or less human. This is a critism of sci-fi in general, which I think would be better named as just fi. Having space, DNA or robots doesn't imply there's any actual science. So understand I'm not knocking this film which I'm quitely hoping will be one of the best of his films. I'm just venting.

It's like watching something like Star Trek and seeing that people are actually HAPPY to use teleporters!

I understand what you are saying Peter but you have to accept that for a story to work or for any type of alien character to "work" it has to be recognisable to us in some form. It would be very difficult to create and alien character that was realistically different and to get an audience to empathise. it has to be familiar to a certain extent. personally I have no problem with the characters being humanoid in this or Star Trek..any more than i have problems empathising with talking rabbits...

[GeneticJen]

I'm assuming that at least some of the characters in the trailer are native Na'vi. And still all more or less human. This is a critism of sci-fi in general, which I think would be better named as just fi. Having space, DNA or robots doesn't imply there's any actual science. So understand I'm not knocking this film which I'm quitely hoping will be one of the best of his films. I'm just venting.

It's like watching something like Star Trek and seeing that people are actually HAPPY to use teleporters!

I understand what you are saying Peter but you have to accept that for a story to work or for any type of alien character to "work" it has to be recognisable to us in some form. It would be very difficult to create and alien character that was realistically different and to get an audience to empathise. it has to be familiar to a certain extent. personally I have no problem with the characters being humanoid in this or Star Trek..any more than i have problems empathising with talking rabbits...

Yep, which is why I'm happy to ignore these thoughts when I actually go see the film and enjoy it for what it is! I just don't get why it can't be called fiction rather than science fiction. As I said, the story would have been pretty crap if his avatar was the alien equivalent of mould, so I'm with you for making it accessible. But I can't help it bugging me in the back of my mind.

[Animavore]

Whoa. Deep philosophical ponderings. If the 'you' that came out the other end retained all the previous memories up to the point of teleportation and continued on to all intends and purposes you never died.

Bollocks. OK, look at it this way. Say I cloned you right now. I don't mean cloning as we do in reality, I mean creating an exact copy of you atom for atom. You both feel like the "real" you, of course. But you were the original. If I then kill you, do you wake up in the clone? No, you're dead. We all feel like you're still around, since this copy does everything like you would, but it's not you. A new life has started, that has all the memories etc that you had. But your life has ended.

You say "to all intends and purposes you never died". That would be the case for people who met the copy of you, assuming it was still the original. It really wouldn't matter. But in reality, your life really would have come to an end.

But, so what if one version of you is dead if another one the exact same is continuing where you left off with all your experiences. You won't even notice. When you come out on the other side you will have no experience of death. And as I said, unless you believe that you have a soul and you end up firing souls out into heaven or hell every time you teleport there shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't have a problem with it anyway. And as I said their are medical benefits. I fail to see a downside (unless there's a power cut just as you're being teleport or worse the computer crashes ).

[Elessarina]

I just don't get why it can't be called fiction rather than science fiction.

because that is the name of a genre

[GeneticJen]

But, so what if one version of you is dead if another one the exact same is continuing where you left off with all your experiences. You won't even notice.

You won't notice because you will be dead. Someone else will come out the other side! I quite like life, and I'd rather stay alive if possible!

Why would it be a problem for you if the teleporter stops working in the process? Your life ends regardless of whether it works or not. The only difference is that a copy of you (that isn't actually YOU) comes out the other side.

Put another way... if I did create an identical copy of you right now, would you be happy with me killing you? Are you alright with me killing you and leaving a copy of you to live?

[Animavore]

But, so what if one version of you is dead if another one the exact same is continuing where you left off with all your experiences. You won't even notice.

You won't notice because you will be dead. Someone else will come out the other side!

Why would it be a problem for you if the teleporter stops working in the process? Your life ends regardless of whether it works or not. The only difference is that a copy of you (that isn't actually YOU) comes out the other side.

What's the difference between an exact copy of you and you? None as far as I can tell. Your life would carry on as normal.

[GeneticJen]

But, so what if one version of you is dead if another one the exact same is continuing where you left off with all your experiences. You won't even notice.

You won't notice because you will be dead. Someone else will come out the other side!

Why would it be a problem for you if the teleporter stops working in the process? Your life ends regardless of whether it works or not. The only difference is that a copy of you (that isn't actually YOU) comes out the other side.

What's the difference between an exact copy of you and you? None as far as I can tell. Your life would carry on as normal.

It would carry on for any outside observers... but not you! The copy of you would carry on as normal, and you would have no experience of this because you were killed! If I clone you, you aren't then two people. You are still you, and there is a copy of you. Two lives. If I kill you, you don't live on through your clone. Or you seem to, to us observers, since your personality and memories are copied. But you experience nothing else, because you died.

[Elessarina]

Put another way... if I did create an identical copy of you right now, would you be happy with me killing you? Are you alright with me killing you and leaving a copy of you to live?

You're talking about the reality of possible transporter technology as opposed to how it actually works/ is applied in Star Trek. In Star Trek you aren't actually made into a copy you are converted into energy and transported -i.e. that is how Scotty survives to the Next Gen by saving his pattern in the tranporter buffer.

[GeneticJen]

Put another way... if I did create an identical copy of you right now, would you be happy with me killing you? Are you alright with me killing you and leaving a copy of you to live?

You're talking about the reality of possible transporter technology as opposed to how it actually works/ is applied in Star Trek. In Star Trek you aren't actually made into a copy you are converted into energy and transported -i.e. that is how Scotty survives to the Next Gen by saving his pattern in the tranporter buffer.

True, what I am describing isn't exactly what Star Trek suggests. However, what you are describing still creates a copy. If you are converted to anything else (magic, energy, whatever...) and then reassembled at the other end so that there is a working brain, is it the same conscious? I would argue no. Again, it seems to have worked, same personality, same thoughts, same memories... but I would still argue that your life ended as this is still a copy of the original brain. Even an exact copy in this example requires the brain to be disassembled to begin with which would end your conscious. To argue that it is you coming out the other end is to argue that you have a soul.

[Elessarina]

True, what I am describing isn't exactly what Star Trek suggests. However, what you are describing still creates a copy. If you are converted to anything else (magic, energy, whatever...) and then reassembled at the other end so that there is a working brain, is it the same conscious? I would argue no. Again, it seems to have worked but I would still argue that your life ended.

As far as I know in Trek it is the same consciousness etc. Furthermore the transporter technology cannot create someone like a replicator can it can only transport a real person.

[Animavore]

To hung over for this. I'll get back on this issue later. I'm off to get breakfast then down the pub to watch the Chelsea game.

Later kids.

[GeneticJen]

True, what I am describing isn't exactly what Star Trek suggests. However, what you are describing still creates a copy. If you are converted to anything else (magic, energy, whatever...) and then reassembled at the other end so that there is a working brain, is it the same conscious? I would argue no. Again, it seems to have worked but I would still argue that your life ended.

As far as I know in Trek it is the same consciousness etc. Furthermore the transporter technology cannot create someone like a replicator can it can only transport a real person.

To everyone alive, it would be the same person. Including that person who is created at the other end. And if Star Trek claim that it's the same consciousness that survives, fine. It is fiction after all. But it wouldn't be the same consciousness. A new "you" would be created at the other end. I'm struggling to make this simpler... I'm obviously not very good at explaining. If your brain was taken apart, atom by atom, you would then be dead. If these atoms were then sent (as magic energy or whatever) to another location and then put all back together, the matter would be creating an exact copy of you. But you (your own conscious) does not survive the trip. Imagine in Star Trek they could duplicate the energy as it travels, so the energy could be sent to TWO different locations. Would you be two people? Of course not.

[Elessarina]

To everyone alive, it would be the same person. Including that person who is created at the other end. And if Star Trek claim that it's the same consciousness that survives, fine. It is fiction after all. But it wouldn't be the same consciousness. A new "you" would be created at the other end. I'm struggling to make this simpler... I'm obviously not very good at explaining. If your brain was taken apart, atom by atom, you would then be dead. If these atoms were then sent (as magic energy or whatever) to another location and then put all back together, the matter would be creating an exact copy of you. But you (your own conscious) does not survive the trip. Imagine in Star Trek they could duplicate the energy as it travels, so the energy could be sent to TWO different locations. Would you be two people? Of course not.

I understand what you are saying as I have read at length about the reality of transporter technology and know someone who has been conducting experiments in it.

As far as I am concerned if I was instantaneously taken apart atom by atom and reassembled I would not be dead or a different person. Do you think when someone dies and are de-fibbed back to life they are a different person? They were "dead" during that time though...

[Elessarina]

Imagine in Star Trek they could duplicate the energy as it travels, so the energy could be sent to TWO different locations. Would you be two people? Of course not.

That does happen actually to Riker in the Next Gen..

[GeneticJen]

To everyone alive, it would be the same person. Including that person who is created at the other end. And if Star Trek claim that it's the same consciousness that survives, fine. It is fiction after all. But it wouldn't be the same consciousness. A new "you" would be created at the other end. I'm struggling to make this simpler... I'm obviously not very good at explaining. If your brain was taken apart, atom by atom, you would then be dead. If these atoms were then sent (as magic energy or whatever) to another location and then put all back together, the matter would be creating an exact copy of you. But you (your own conscious) does not survive the trip. Imagine in Star Trek they could duplicate the energy as it travels, so the energy could be sent to TWO different locations. Would you be two people? Of course not.

I understand what you are saying as I have read at length about the reality of transporter technology and know someone who has been conducting experiments in it.

As far as I am concerned if I was instantaneously taken apart atom by atom and reassembled I would not be dead or a different person. Do you think when someone dies and are de-fibbed back to life they are a different person? They were "dead" during that time though...

Totally different thing. Their matter wasn't deconstructed! When you are de-fibbed, nobody is creating an identical copy of you anywhere.

Imagine in Star Trek they could duplicate the energy as it travels, so the energy could be sent to TWO different locations. Would you be two people? Of course not.

That does happen actually to Riker in the Next Gen..

I've not seen that. So was he actually two people, in that he controlled both bodies simultaneously (which is what would happen if you are right) or were they both independent beings but both feeling they were genuinely Riker (which is what would really happen)?

The only way you are going to be transported somewhere and have it actually be YOU, is if you literally get transported there. For sci-fi distances, Alien presents a realistic option. And if you know people working on teleportation experiments, bring this up with them! And involve some neurologists if you know any of them.