ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:00 pm

rainbow wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Well, there's no reason to doubt that they use religion as an excuse and a manipulation tool.
No question at all that this is what they are doing. Using religion to gain political power is hardly a new idea.
You are implying that their religious beliefs are a thin veneer, simply a cloak to hide their political machinations. While not denying that politics and the will to power is woven through their actions and motivations, I think you are mistaken if you think there is not also a fervent and fanatical faith at the heart of ISIS, which propels them to actions that purely political motivations would not.
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:19 pm

rainbow wrote:

Not really.
If you believe them that their motivation is religious rather than political, you should believe the rest of the lies they put out.

Be consistent.
Two points occur to me:

1. Motivations do not have to be "either/or". I'm sure that the ISIS leadership has motivations which include the usual hominid lust for personal power, but I'm equally certain that they have a powerful religious belief system whose tenets have a significant effect on their decisions in ways quite different to the purely political.

2. I can believe that their motivation is at least partly religious based on several lines of evidence, not just because they claim it in this latest communique.
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by DaveDodo007 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:03 am

rainbow wrote:
JimC wrote:Back to the OP...

Some sections of western media follow a scripted party line about Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the terrorist actions it entails. They insist, above all "this is not about religion"

Well, from the horse's mouth so to speak, they are clearly wrong...
What?

You actually believe that what Isis says is true?
No, I know they believe it, hence the willingness to die for the cause/god. So unless you are claiming every muslim martyr is a false flag operation (for which you had better provide loads of evidence for.) Then JimC is right.
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:14 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:
rainbow wrote:
JimC wrote:Back to the OP...

Some sections of western media follow a scripted party line about Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the terrorist actions it entails. They insist, above all "this is not about religion"

Well, from the horse's mouth so to speak, they are clearly wrong...
What?

You actually believe that what Isis says is true?
No, I know they believe it, hence the willingness to die for the cause/god. So unless you are claiming every muslim martyr is a false flag operation (for which you had better provide loads of evidence for.) Then JimC is right.
Yes, suicide bombing is good evidence for a fundamentalist belief system being a significant motivator. Another is the extent to which ISIS is prepared to attack fellow muslims with a different shade of islamic belief. If they purely wanted political power, they would get a lot of strategic benefit from appealing to a wider audience - as it is, they have achieved the bitter opposition of Shiite muslims, for reasons that only make sense on the basis of irrational religious motivation...
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by rainbow » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:33 am

JimC wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Well, there's no reason to doubt that they use religion as an excuse and a manipulation tool.
No question at all that this is what they are doing. Using religion to gain political power is hardly a new idea.
You are implying that their religious beliefs are a thin veneer, simply a cloak to hide their political machinations.
Nope, I'm not implying it at all.

Is fact.
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by rainbow » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:35 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:
rainbow wrote:
JimC wrote:Back to the OP...

Some sections of western media follow a scripted party line about Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the terrorist actions it entails. They insist, above all "this is not about religion"

Well, from the horse's mouth so to speak, they are clearly wrong...
What?

You actually believe that what Isis says is true?
No, I know they believe it, hence the willingness to die for the cause/god.
Funny how the leaders never strap on the vest to set an example.

This never occurred to you?
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by Svartalf » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:51 am

Lol, reminds me of a Georges Brassens song titled " To Die for Ideas"
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:10 am

rainbow wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:
rainbow wrote:
JimC wrote:Back to the OP...

Some sections of western media follow a scripted party line about Islamic fundamentalist ideology and the terrorist actions it entails. They insist, above all "this is not about religion"

Well, from the horse's mouth so to speak, they are clearly wrong...
What?

You actually believe that what Isis says is true?
No, I know they believe it, hence the willingness to die for the cause/god.
Funny how the leaders never strap on the vest to set an example.

This never occurred to you?
So only the leaders are ISIS?
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by rainbow » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:54 am

eRvin wrote: So only the leaders are ISIS?
No.
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:08 am

Ultimately, the fact that religious beliefs are delusional nonsense does not change the vast impact that people holding such beliefs can inflict...

Just ask the victims of the inquisition...
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by NineBerry » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:14 am

JimC wrote: Yes, suicide bombing is good evidence for a fundamentalist belief system being a significant motivator.
it is not the leaders doing the suicide missions. Both in the middle east and over here in the west, it is very often (Al Quaida was actually the notable exception) members of two groups who commit suicide operations:

1. People of lower social rank that are pressured into it for example by threatening the safety of their family or blackmailing to publish some information about them they could not live with (happens often in Israel/Palestine terrorism)

2. People with a separate psychological issue.
JimC wrote: Another is the extent to which ISIS is prepared to attack fellow muslims with a different shade of islamic belief. If they purely wanted political power, they would get a lot of strategic benefit from appealing to a wider audience - as it is, they have achieved the bitter opposition of Shiite muslims, for reasons that only make sense on the basis of irrational religious motivation...
There is two very simple other non-religious reasons that makes absolute sense for why ISIS targets specific religious groups:

1. Shiites are the ethnic group that took control of Iraq after the end of the Saddam Regime. The conflict between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq is not a theological dispute but one between different population groups (like we also saw in Rwanda).

2. Putting one ethnic group against another is a very powerful tool if you want to gain power. (Again see example of Rwanda). The Sunni majority in Iraq actually has the feeling that it suffered from oppression by the Shiite elites after the fall of the Saddam regime. So this is a sentiment that can easily be used to bring the people on your side.

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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:32 am

Again, it simply means that a variety of other motivations can be joined to the primary religious one. I sometimes wonder why a certain political branch of atheism is so keen to deny a twisted religious motivation as a significant component of islamic terrorism...
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by NineBerry » Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:38 am

The religion may well be the major motivator for some of the executing terrorists, but not of the leaders.

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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:02 am

NineBerry wrote:The religion may well be the major motivator for some of the executing terrorists, but not of the leaders.
The leaders may have a cynical mixture of power hunger, self preservation and religious fanaticism, with the self justification of not being suicide bombers being that Allah needs them for their amazing leadership skills... :roll:
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Re: ISIS Responds to Pope Francis.

Post by NineBerry » Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:05 am

Preachers never believe what they preach. It is a natural law.

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