Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

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DRSB
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by DRSB » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:33 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:
Deersbee wrote:Actually, you second my point, namely, that her fame was overrated; but just think what a fame: to make it to Rationalia!
However, regardless whether her prophecies were accurate or not, I cannot rule out the possibility that she may have actually helped somebody conceive by recommending herbal treatments for treatable conditions.

By corrolary, how many people might she have hurt because of her whackjobbery?
Alas, we shall never know for sure. However, conventional medicine is not without mishaps either, just think of all the legal suits fought, or how exploitative big pharma can be.

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by my_wan » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:45 pm

Deersbee wrote:As I pointed out already, Vanga had no idea about thermonuclear processes, or physics in general, and only vaguely an idea, if at all, where China is on the map, not sure whether she was literate, most probably not. She did not have staff reading scientific magazines to her all day. I don't see what you all are trying to disprove, some stupid jokes played by attributing prophecies to her. It is all hearsay, she never gave interviews, taping was not allowed, and people went to her not to hear about thermonuclear process but to ask whether they would be able to finally conceive a child. In Russia they made a myth out of her, because they are crazy about so called "extra-senses" and wrote more books about her than in Bulgaria. Take my word, those so called "prophecies" are all made up!
Whether Vanga ever even really existed or not. or did and made ever statement ever attributed to her, the crap attributed to her would still be bunk. The fact that people believe any part of her prognostications is enough to warrant rebuttal. The pretense that a rebuttal of the claims and a rebuttal of Vanga's actual prognostication are somehow distinct looks like nothing more than an excuse to pick and choose what you want to believe about her. She had no more power of prognostication than my toenail clippings.
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by DRSB » Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:56 pm

my_wan wrote:
Deersbee wrote:As I pointed out already, Vanga had no idea about thermonuclear processes, or physics in general, and only vaguely an idea, if at all, where China is on the map, not sure whether she was literate, most probably not. She did not have staff reading scientific magazines to her all day. I don't see what you all are trying to disprove, some stupid jokes played by attributing prophecies to her. It is all hearsay, she never gave interviews, taping was not allowed, and people went to her not to hear about thermonuclear process but to ask whether they would be able to finally conceive a child. In Russia they made a myth out of her, because they are crazy about so called "extra-senses" and wrote more books about her than in Bulgaria. Take my word, those so called "prophecies" are all made up!
Whether Vanga ever even really existed or not. or did and made ever statement ever attributed to her, the crap attributed to her would still be bunk. The fact that people believe any part of her prognostications is enough to warrant rebuttal. The pretense that a rebuttal of the claims and a rebuttal of Vanga's actual prognostication are somehow distinct looks like nothing more than an excuse to pick and choose what you want to believe about her. She had no more power of prognostication than my toenail clippings.
True, but why beat a dead horse?

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by electricwhiteboy » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:03 pm

Deersbee wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote: “meaningful coincidences”
Serendipity, you mean. That was a lovely film!
Nope. I mean synchronicity. Serendipity is a “discovery by happy accident” which isn’t quite the same thing.

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by my_wan » Fri Dec 03, 2010 11:05 pm

Deersbee wrote:
my_wan wrote:
Deersbee wrote:As I pointed out already, Vanga had no idea about thermonuclear processes, or physics in general, and only vaguely an idea, if at all, where China is on the map, not sure whether she was literate, most probably not. She did not have staff reading scientific magazines to her all day. I don't see what you all are trying to disprove, some stupid jokes played by attributing prophecies to her. It is all hearsay, she never gave interviews, taping was not allowed, and people went to her not to hear about thermonuclear process but to ask whether they would be able to finally conceive a child. In Russia they made a myth out of her, because they are crazy about so called "extra-senses" and wrote more books about her than in Bulgaria. Take my word, those so called "prophecies" are all made up!
Whether Vanga ever even really existed or not. or did and made ever statement ever attributed to her, the crap attributed to her would still be bunk. The fact that people believe any part of her prognostications is enough to warrant rebuttal. The pretense that a rebuttal of the claims and a rebuttal of Vanga's actual prognostication are somehow distinct looks like nothing more than an excuse to pick and choose what you want to believe about her. She had no more power of prognostication than my toenail clippings.
True, but why beat a dead horse?
The dead horse horse I'm beating is not Vanga, but those attributing something real to her. Unfortunately that horse may have a broken leg, and needs to be put down, but it's not dead yet.
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by TheGreatGatsby » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:32 am

electricwhiteboy wrote:What? Someone entertained this pile of tosh? I have personally experienced a load of weird shit, from unnervingly accurate tarot readings and incredibly unlikely statistically repeating patterns in the cards, to full on group sightings. But I have never once thought there isn’t a rational and fully cohesive sceptical explanation, even for some of the things I still can’t fully explain rationally beyond “meaningful coincidences occur.”
What "full on group sightings" and unnerving accuracies are you referring to?
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by Hermit » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:11 am

TheGreatGatsby wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:What? Someone entertained this pile of tosh? I have personally experienced a load of weird shit, from unnervingly accurate tarot readings and incredibly unlikely statistically repeating patterns in the cards, to full on group sightings. But I have never once thought there isn’t a rational and fully cohesive sceptical explanation, even for some of the things I still can’t fully explain rationally beyond “meaningful coincidences occur.”
What "full on group sightings" and unnerving accuracies are you referring to?
Never mind that. In light of "a very disturbing coincidence" that had you "thinking twice about the existence of supernatural forces", I am more interested in what you think now that WWIII has failed to eventuate in November 2010.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by TheGreatGatsby » Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:35 pm

It is obvious by now that her only prediction even remotely approaching accuracy is the Kursk one, so it was rather preposterous for me to suggest this as evidence.
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by Eriku » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:01 pm

Good lad... Be parsimonious with your assumptions next time ^_^

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by electricwhiteboy » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:54 pm

TheGreatGatsby wrote:
electricwhiteboy wrote:What? Someone entertained this pile of tosh? I have personally experienced a load of weird shit, from unnervingly accurate tarot readings and incredibly unlikely statistically repeating patterns in the cards, to full on group sightings. But I have never once thought there isn’t a rational and fully cohesive sceptical explanation, even for some of the things I still can’t fully explain rationally beyond “meaningful coincidences occur.”
What "full on group sightings" and unnerving accuracies are you referring to?
I have experienced a fear induced group hallucination where I saw very clearly a figure I could perceive in detail appear and disappear before my eyes. I completely chalk it down to adrenalin and an active imagination, and ascribe no objective validity to what I saw. At the time I was not particularly in the mood to talk with the strangers who also witnessed “something” terrifying in the same location, so I have no idea what the experience was for them. The only thing that I deduce from the event is that it is possible to literally see things that are not there without drugs or a history of mental illness, and for others to experience a similar phenomenon at the same time.

I have read tarot cards for about the last two years, and no I do not believe that they can predict the future, or that anything paranormal is going on. It’s pretty much the same thing as tossing a coin to make a decision; it gives you a random stimulus to make you think outside the box on a given problem. I can understand why people become under the impression that something unusual, or some kind of foresight is happening. Because there are multiple possible meanings to each card, and you have to make an “intuitive interpretation” it’s very easy to retroactively assign a meaning. At present I am keeping a detailed diary in an effort to debunk the Tarot because I have found the cards to be more accurate than I would have expected as a sceptic, I view this to be a potential flaw in my critical analysis and not as any proof that they work.

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by DRSB » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:59 am

TheGreatGatsby wrote:It is obvious by now that her only prediction even remotely approaching accuracy is the Kursk one, so it was rather preposterous for me to suggest this as evidence.
I'm failry certain even this prediction has been made up and attributed!

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by Thinking Aloud » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:16 pm

electricwhiteboy wrote:Because there are multiple possible meanings to each card, and you have to make an “intuitive interpretation” it’s very easy to retroactively assign a meaning. At present I am keeping a detailed diary in an effort to debunk the Tarot because I have found the cards to be more accurate than I would have expected as a sceptic, I view this to be a potential flaw in my critical analysis and not as any proof that they work.
Confirmation bias? Keep us informed - sounds like an interesting project.

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by Trolldor » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:18 pm

I've had two 'tarot' readings in my life, neither were remotely accurate.

Either that or I have died twice already, in which case you're all fucked muhahahah!
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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by DRSB » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:23 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:I've had two 'tarot' readings in my life, neither were remotely accurate.

Either that or I have died twice already, in which case you're all fucked muhahahah!
Unless you "died" symbolically and started over as a reformed a new person, this is what death symbolizes in Tarot.
Tarot is a system of symbols that can be used to help put a bridge between subconscious and conscious knowledge and for meditation because you always know more than you know; it is for personal consumption actually, not for predictions and charlatanie.

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Re: Biggest challenge to my denial of the supernatural yet

Post by TheGreatGatsby » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:24 pm

The tarot thing probably isn't confirmational bias, as he doesn't believe in the phenomenon himself. Rather, it's probably the ambiguity of the readings.
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