Admiration for Cathedrals shattered

[Rum]

I think you will accept that this is a pretty original topic title!

There is a TV programme her in the UK at the moment called 'Inside the Medieval Mind'. It is actually rather good and pretty scholarly -- it is an Open University programme.

Tonight's episode was about the manner in which the Church controlled sexuality and other aspects of intimate life in those times. There was quite a lot about original sin, the role of women as the original sinners, the evils of sexual lust and all that rubbish,

But as the prog developed it used footage of the Cathedrals we know and which are taken for granted as small 'wonders' in North West Europe. Some of them are spectacular to say the least.

However as the programme tonight expounded its view, which was basically that superstition, ignorance and fear ruled the lives of millions then (and no doubt still does), those buildings suddenly looked ugly and ominous to me - ideology and oppression combined into architectural totalitarianism for all.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Hi there Rum. Nice to see you posting at last!

I know what you mean. It is easy to admire the beauty of religious buildings, and the immense skill (the state of the art of its day) that went into constructing them. Look a little closer though, and think about the oppression that went into them, and it is another matter.

Durham cathedral is magnificent. A towering example of Norman architecture. But when you observe the mark on the floor that delimits the closest that women were permitted to approach the altar, your admiration for the builders dims in light of your disgust at the wankers for whom it was built.

Very much the same could be said of the temples of hinduism, the mosques of islam and the holy buildings of any faith. They are all monuments to ignorance, delusion, tyranny and bigotry. I could never advocate the demolishing of such great structures, but I would love to see them all put to constructive use; as libraries, schools, museums and public brothels!

[klr]

'Inside the Medieval Mind' ... google sez BBC4. That'll teach me for not scanning the channel listings ahead of time for programs worth recording/watching . No sign of a repeat showing over the next few days. I can catch the next two programs, but I'd like to have seen this opening episode. Hopefully the series will be repeated, probably on BBC2.

Maybe Youtube will help.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

'Inside the Medieval Mind' ... google sez BBC4. That'll teach me for not scanning the channel listings ahead of time for programs worth recording/watching . No sign of a repeat showing over the next few days. I can catch the next two programs, but I'd like to have seen this opening episode. Hopefully the series will be repeated, probably on BBC2.

Maybe Youtube will help.

Can't you get the BBC iPlayer over there Kev?

[klr]

'Inside the Medieval Mind' ... google sez BBC4. That'll teach me for not scanning the channel listings ahead of time for programs worth recording/watching . No sign of a repeat showing over the next few days. I can catch the next two programs, but I'd like to have seen this opening episode. Hopefully the series will be repeated, probably on BBC2.

Maybe Youtube will help.

Can't you get the BBC iPlayer over there Kev?

There is that, although technically speaking, I don't have access, not living in the UK.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

'Inside the Medieval Mind' ... google sez BBC4. That'll teach me for not scanning the channel listings ahead of time for programs worth recording/watching . No sign of a repeat showing over the next few days. I can catch the next two programs, but I'd like to have seen this opening episode. Hopefully the series will be repeated, probably on BBC2.

Maybe Youtube will help.

Can't you get the BBC iPlayer over there Kev?

There is that, although technically speaking, I don't have access, not living in the UK.

And technically speaking, using a proxy server to circumvent copyright restrictions would be wrong, wouldn't it?

[klr]

'Inside the Medieval Mind' ... google sez BBC4. That'll teach me for not scanning the channel listings ahead of time for programs worth recording/watching . No sign of a repeat showing over the next few days. I can catch the next two programs, but I'd like to have seen this opening episode. Hopefully the series will be repeated, probably on BBC2.

Maybe Youtube will help.

Can't you get the BBC iPlayer over there Kev?

There is that, although technically speaking, I don't have access, not living in the UK.

And technically speaking, using a proxy server to circumvent copyright restrictions would be wrong, wouldn't it?

Hell no. I pay a licence fee indirectly to BBC by way of my cable subscription, so I think I'm entitled to to some of the high-tech extras.

Cheating is a gift man gives himself - Montgomery Burns

[obscured by clouds]

However as the programme tonight expounded its view, which was basically that superstition, ignorance and fear ruled the lives of millions then (and no doubt still does), those buildings suddenly looked ugly and ominous to me - ideology and oppression combined into architectural totalitarianism for all.

When I look at those building, it makes my heart sink with a terrible sadness. The rape of the land, the slave labor, stealing money, wars to pay for it, all those who were forced year after year to build these monuments. All the sacrifice for an invisible friend is heartbreaking for me to see. I have a hard time looking and being able to enjoy the architecture without being sad.

== obscured by clouds ==

[Xamonas Chegwé]

However as the programme tonight expounded its view, which was basically that superstition, ignorance and fear ruled the lives of millions then (and no doubt still does), those buildings suddenly looked ugly and ominous to me - ideology and oppression combined into architectural totalitarianism for all.

When I look at those building, it makes my heart sink with a terrible sadness. The rape of the land, the slave labor, stealing money, wars to pay for it, all those who were forced year after year to build these monuments. All the sacrifice for an invisible friend is heartbreaking for me to see. I have a hard time looking and being able to enjoy the architecture without being sad.

The same can be said of the pyramids. Or the Hoover dam for that matter.

[obscured by clouds]

However as the programme tonight expounded its view, which was basically that superstition, ignorance and fear ruled the lives of millions then (and no doubt still does), those buildings suddenly looked ugly and ominous to me - ideology and oppression combined into architectural totalitarianism for all.

When I look at those building, it makes my heart sink with a terrible sadness. The rape of the land, the slave labor, stealing money, wars to pay for it, all those who were forced year after year to build these monuments. All the sacrifice for an invisible friend is heartbreaking for me to see. I have a hard time looking and being able to enjoy the architecture without being sad.

The same can be said of the pyramids. Or the Hoover dam for that matter.

The pyramids yes, the Hoover damn though? Don't remember that being built for a sky fairy?

== obscured by clouds ==

[Xamonas Chegwé]

However as the programme tonight expounded its view, which was basically that superstition, ignorance and fear ruled the lives of millions then (and no doubt still does), those buildings suddenly looked ugly and ominous to me - ideology and oppression combined into architectural totalitarianism for all.

When I look at those building, it makes my heart sink with a terrible sadness. The rape of the land, the slave labor, stealing money, wars to pay for it, all those who were forced year after year to build these monuments. All the sacrifice for an invisible friend is heartbreaking for me to see. I have a hard time looking and being able to enjoy the architecture without being sad.

The same can be said of the pyramids. Or the Hoover dam for that matter.

The pyramids yes, the Hoover damn though? Don't remember that being built for a sky fairy?

Nope. No sky fairy. More political ideology in this case. But the rest pretty much fits. The 'official' death toll was 112 but this ignores hundreds, perhaps even thousands, that died of carbon monoxide poisoning, heat exhaustion and similar causes that were dismissed as 'pneumonia' by the construction companies. Needless to say, the widows and orphans of these 'natural causes' received nothing in way of compensation. It also ignores the many more that starved or died of heat exhaustion in camps set up by itinerant workers hoping to get hired on day-rates.

As far as rape of the land goes, the full environmental cost of the dam is still not known - but whole species may have been wiped out, along with many others suffering massive decrease in numbers due to altered habitats.

My point was that such massive engineering projects never come without a human or environmental cost.

[obscured by clouds]

My point was that such massive engineering projects never come without a human or environmental cost.

Sure. One is to achieve a goal to make the world a better place and the other is well, bullshit. The difference I see is the tangible vs intangible. The modern world we live in has demands that are at odds with or environment. I feel some pride for what people have done and sacrifice to give us a better life. I honor them, unlike the towers built for a fairy, that is sad, very sad for me to see.

I remember seeing Notre Dame (and other monstrosity in Pairs), next to Holland my only experience in Europe. Being overwhelmed with sadness since I do know there stories and how they where built.

== obscured by clouds ==

[Xamonas Chegwé]

My point was that such massive engineering projects never come without a human or environmental cost.

Sure. One is to achieve a goal to make the world a better place and the other is well, bullshit. The difference I see is the tangible vs intangible. The modern world we live in has demands that are at odds with or environment. I feel some pride for what people have done and sacrifice to give us a better life. I honor them, unlike the towers built for a fairy, that is sad, very sad for me to see.

I remember seeing Notre Dame (and other monstrosity in Pairs), next to Holland my only experience in Europe. Being overwhelmed with sadness since I do know there stories and how they where built.

If you consider providing water so that people can play blackjack in the middle of a desert making the world a better place, then I guess you are right.

But the fact is, the people that built it worked themselves into the ground (literally in hundreds of cases) not because of any noble ideals, but because there were no other jobs anywhere. Thousands of people camped out in the middle of a fucking desert with their families, just hoping that they might get a day's work. It brought benefits to the casino owners in Vegas and to the landowners in Socal that could farm without fear of periodic floods and droughts - but at a huge cost to the natural environment of hundreds of miles of the Colorado river valley. An impact that is still continuing as overwatering means that the level of Lake Mead and the Colorado falls year on year. Still, as long as there's enough for the volcano at the Mirage, eh?

By comparison, the artisans that built most of the great cathedrals in Europe were well paid and chose the job as an easy option - the medieval church was the wealthiest employer the world has ever known in terms of percentage of the world's capital. And apart from a few holes in the ground to dig up stone, the environmental impact of a cathedral is pretty minimal.

Don't get me wrong, I am not justifying wasting the equivalent of tens of millions on building a fucking god-rocket when there are people starving to death, just comparing the impacts of each. The technical expertise of both cathedrals and the dam are to be admired, and the justification for building cannot take away the sense of awe at the achievement of making something like that a reality.

[cowiz]

You are all forgetting one thing. In the middle ages, if you were in trouble, you could run to a church or cathedral and shout "apothecary" (or something like that) and you could not be arrested while you were in the church. That's a valuable social service if you're a criminal on the run from the law.

[Chinaski]

You are all forgetting one thing. In the middle ages, if you were in trouble, you could run to a church or cathedral and shout "apothecary" (or something like that) and you could not be arrested while you were in the church. That's a valuable social service if you're a criminal on the run from the law.

The word was "sanctuary".