Religion as political autocracy

[charlou]

Going back to a more general view of the power of religion, as suggested in the OP...

I suspect that the power of religion does not derive from a single factor, but the way in which it manages to tick many boxes in our nature. I agree that one of those is how it lends itself to the operation of an authoritarian hierarchy, so that the self-interest of powerful men will help to develop and maintain it. However, it also fits well into many other of our hominid quirks, such as:

* our tendency to find patterns, to actually need to see patterns...

* the fear of death

* tribal solidarity, particularly an us vs them scenario

* a fondness for ritual, dance and music

Nice post ... Just want to point out that it's culture, generally, that ticks those boxes. Religious fervour exploits them.

[Dennis Campbell]

Bruce,

You miss the point. It is not "Atheism," which is as you note, an absence of a belief, it is secularism which is not an absence of a belief system that is at stake here, Our alternative is NOT to hew to your particular expressions of some god, but to consider what many of us do subscribe to in terms of secular values. It would be an error to argue that, what, we need to "find god" as you define that? I do not think so.

I'm really not talking about finding God. I'm talking about a particular institution that formed part of a particular society. If you start destroying some of the foundation stones, you weaken the whole wall. Christianity and Europe grew up together, so to speak. Whether Christianity is true or not, its institutional presence as a social force forms part of the fabric of European civilization. Humans are innately religious, and if you remove a religious "stone" from the social wall, you create a void. Islam, the new kid on the block, is more than willing to substitute its own stones, and change the makeup of the wall. Secularism does not have the psychological power to fight it. (We will see how well it works in France) You need a socio/religious national myth to ward off the foreign god.

Bruce,

Take your point. However, we're still faced with what we do counter Islam with when it comes to the push. I think (read hope) that the demonstrated values of secularism will sustain that wall, but there's no guarantee nor certainty. Reverting back to Christianity may be an option, but then it is one autocracy pitted against another. Hell of a choice when you're at trial.

Dennis

[Trolldor]

Here's a serious post:
No. It won't work. Britian is to steeped in racism in to have some damn foreigner law usurp their own.

[Rum]

It won't happen. Don't be ridiculous. The man is a known twat.

Slightly less than deep initial response, however the guy has no foothold or credibility. It is true to say that there is a radical element of Islam in this country which would have similar aims, however there are a number of barriers. These include numbers of people (they are a small minority), the fact that we are a democracy and that the vast majority of people don't want what they want any more than they want the BNP to be in power.

[Dennis Campbell]

As one video showed, it is more a matter of huge differences in fecundity rates and immigration patterns. Question is whether or not secular values will have a mitigating influence or not.

Dennis

[Bruce Burleson]

It won't happen. Don't be ridiculous. The man is a known twat.

Slightly less than deep initial response, however the guy has no foothold or credibility. It is true to say that there is a radical element of Islam in this country which would have similar aims, however there are a number of barriers. These include numbers of people (they are a small minority), the fact that we are a democracy and that the vast majority of people don't want what they want any more than they want the BNP to be in power.

Certainly hope you are right. The loss of England would be sad.

[Oldskeptic]

This second video reminds me of the irrational fears of the US during the early part of the 1900’s that Catholic immigrants were going to out breed Protestants and the US would come under the control of the evil Pope in Rome. It did happen.

The children and grand children assimilated very well. They learned and spoke English without accents of their parents. Adopted US culture and though their immigrant parents where for the most part devout church goers their children and grandchildren were less so. It didn’t take long for it to be able to tell a person’s ethnic/religious background only by their last names.

It also didn’t take long for the fertility rate of these ethnic groups to fall in line with that of the general population.

So before freaking out about this Islamic threat to Europe and the US I’d want to know more about the religious habits and cultural assimilation of the first, second, and third generation persons born in country.

Islamic leaders going back to the fifties have been warning about the power of western culture to corrupt Muslims, and they are right in thinking that Muslims exposed to it tend to adopt it. That is why they fight hard to keep it out of Muslim countries. And if it is so corrupting in some place like Egypt then just imagine how corrupting it is to be born into a western culture and immersed in it everyday.

Just another way to look at it. I could be wrong, it’s happened before.

[Dennis Campbell]

Good points all. There does seem to be a great fecundity rate difference and a quite large influx of Muslims into Europe and the U.S. over the last 30 years.

What I am too ignorant of is/are the sociological, anthropological characteristics of these immigrants and their resulting political impact in or on western countries.

There is a tendency to see a lot of alarming hype as to risks to western civil governance, but it is important I think to try and assess that as much as possible. What if any are the risks, how assessed, what can be done, etc. More questions in my mind than firm answers.

Dennis