Muslim Ban Over Handshake. Whaddayareckon Liberals?

[JimC]

But correlation does not imply causation. There could be a third thing that is responsible (like for example geography + history).

Although of course there may be other factors, you're not seriously going to tell me that Islam has no connection with appalling treatment of women?

[Svartalf]

Islam highly respects women, those that are respectable.

[JimC]

Islam highly respects women, those that are respectable.

i.e. the ones who stay at home, completely cover up when out and obey their menfolk totally...

[Svartalf]

I myself prefer highly irrespectable gals... even though I could do with a lady who was reasonably submissive to me.

[NineBerry]

If you look at appalling treatment of women, you see a similar pattern in many societies independent of the specific religion practised. To me it seems more like it is the result of conservatism in sedentary societies. Conservatives in a sedentary society like to use the religion available as a tool to justify their policies. Religions that developed in such conservative sedentary societies often have anti-equality principles in their foundations because they couldn't very well survive and spread without cooperating with the ruling conservatives.

[Brian Peacock]

Got a point there.

[JimC]

If you look at appalling treatment of women, you see a similar pattern in many societies independent of the specific religion practised. To me it seems more like it is the result of conservatism in sedentary societies. Conservatives in a sedentary society like to use the religion available as a tool to justify their policies. Religions that developed in such conservative sedentary societies often have anti-equality principles in their foundations because they couldn't very well survive and spread without cooperating with the ruling conservatives.

Fine, but at the present time, Islam is the leading exemplar of this particular toxic mix...

[NineBerry]

I am not so sure about that. Look at Hindu society in India for example. It seems to me that the problem is more related to a certain geographic region than a certain religion.

[Svartalf]

geographic region? how the heck do you describe a single "geographic region" that goes from Morocco to the Chinese border and that encompasses both desert and monsoon climates?

[NineBerry]

"former European colonies in Northern Africa and Southern Asia"

But there are also differences with regard to oppression of females between different regions. If you look for example on acid attacks, you see those mainly in certain countries, independently of the religions in those countries. This is for example also widespread in South America, where there are hardly any muslims. it is very prevalent in Cambodia which is a Buddhist country. It is prevalent in Ethiopia which is a Christian country but rare in Egypt which is a Muslim country. So, there must be more to it than only the religion. Other aspects of history/culture play a role.

[Svartalf]

How does the status as former colonies mean anything to that? They stomped on their women with their bronze age mores long before the White Man became a factor in their society, and they go on now that he's gone.

[NineBerry]

Mostly everyone stomped on their women more than a few centuries ago. As a trend, this did change in the countries that were former colonial powers but not so much in the former colonies. Maybe this is related to where industrialism took place (which is based on colonialism) and where it didn't.

[Tero]

Cut their left hand (or right )off, mummify it and then offer the mummyhand to shake hands with strangers.

[Exi5tentialist]

I'll challenge any argument about islam being the cause of women's oppression in muslim countries. Women's oppression is a form of economic exclusion and it happens EVERYWHERE. The most significant right-wing regimes in the Middle East came to power on the back some action by the West whose states ALL have long histories of women's oppression and gender segregation. The West supported and funded the Shah against whom the Ayatollahs rebelled, the West arms the Saudis, the West colluded in the overthrow of the first democratically elected government in Egypt EVER. Western capitalism cannot be divorced from all forms of oppression in the Middle East and that is even before the West destroyed the economies of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Yemen and Syria - all countries with muslim majorities. To exclude the West from the argument about the economic basis of women's oppression in all those countries is to deny truth.

And the quoters of the Quran who like to pretend that women are oppressed by authors who died over a thousand years ago are about as irrational as anything and yet they spout this shit with a completely straight face. All religions are co-opted, moulded, included and excluded according to the needs of economic ruling classes.

[Exi5tentialist]

So, yes it is completely racist for anyone to refer to "muslim countries". We have become studious in not conflating Israel with Jews but when it comes to muslims some of us mix the concepts of State, Nation and Religion up quite freely. It's hypocritical, racist and stereotyping. It's the politics of the extreme right.