The Myth of the Moderate Muslim

[rainbow]

I believe democracy and a Western lifestyle can be bombed into place.

...which is exactly what Cheney and his puppet Dubya told you.

Yet you still believe this drivel.

It is exactly this sort of stupidity that has brought us to the present situation.

[cronus]

I believe democracy and a Western lifestyle can be bombed into place.

...which is exactly what Cheney and his puppet Dubya told you.

Yet you still believe this drivel.

It is exactly this sort of stupidity that has brought us to the present situation.

Yes, why shouldn't I believe in something that will save my life when the fascists take over? Doesn't mean I'd be bombing anyone, myself. In my ideal world lamb and lion sat together....exactly like it should be.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/print/st ... r_20151122

[rainbow]

I believe democracy and a Western lifestyle can be bombed into place.

...which is exactly what Cheney and his puppet Dubya told you.

Yet you still believe this drivel.

It is exactly this sort of stupidity that has brought us to the present situation.

Yes, why shouldn't I believe in something that will save my life when the fascists take over?

Because this is what they want you to believe.

...the fascists, that is.

[cronus]

I believe democracy and a Western lifestyle can be bombed into place.

...which is exactly what Cheney and his puppet Dubya told you.

Yet you still believe this drivel.

It is exactly this sort of stupidity that has brought us to the present situation.

Yes, why shouldn't I believe in something that will save my life when the fascists take over?

Because this is what they want you to believe.

...the fascists, that is.

You are far way from Mirkwood here, you have little knowledge of the shadow that lingers within it, stirs and wakens a little.

[Hermit]

You changed the subject first.

Oh dear. Argument from "He started it."



What next? I disagree about it being me who "started it". JimC switched the topic by opining that the sad truth is there is only the choice between secular, army-backed dictators or Islamist theocrats, which may be true enough, but really does not relate to "the myth of the moderate Muslim". Then you jumped on the regime change bandwagon with your belief that democracy and a Western lifestyle can be bombed into place. After replying to that piece of nonsense I reminded you - again - of the title thread and the opening post, both authored by you. Shall we try again? I'll give it another go.

Earlier today I watched a brief discussion between the television show host Bill Maher, Canada's trade minister Chrystia Freeland and two other participants. Maher concentrated on the significant minorities of Muslims, even in countries like Turkey and Indonesia, that are regarded as moderate, supported "honour crimes", Isil, the punishment of rape victims and so on. He also insisted that we require immigrants to adhere to our laws and we so not make allowances for their traditional denial of human rights, from which women suffer the most. There must not be any compromise for the sake of cultural diversity.

I agree with all of that. Let Muslims kneel on their prayer rugs five times a day in their own time, in their own space, and let them observe all other religious rituals similarly without let or hinderance, but do not permit a parallel legal system based on Sharia. When in Rome...

Freeman was a truly hopeless debater, but this I agree with: By treating all Muslims as aliens, ogres and frequently no better than Islamic extremists, terrorist sympathisers or actual terrorists we are playing straight into the hands of those extremists and terrorists. Alienating the majority of Muslims who actually are moderate or entirely indifferent in regard to their religion drives ever increasing numbers of them toward extremism and terrorism. We need to accept and treat them as equals. That includes the ones that commit crimes; They don't get incarcerated for Islamic rape, Islamic murder or Islamic bombings. They get incarcerated the exact same way a non Muslim offender would.

[cronus]

You are the captain. Given the under-reporting of crimes against women in our society and the misogynistic nature of honour cultures and the Islamic variety in particular maybe your ideas of equality are a tad naive though? I say refugees need de-programming - they should be broken apart and not allowed to self-ghettoise. Placed in neighbourhoods with high diversity, housed close to gay bars etc, so they mix with the sort of people who'll open their eyes.

[Hermit]

Given the under-reporting of crimes against women in our society and the misogynistic nature of honour cultures and the Islamic variety in particular maybe your ideas of equality are a tad naive though? I say refugees need de-programming - they should be broken apart and not allowed to self-ghettoise. Placed in neighbourhoods with high diversity, housed close to gay bars etc, so they mix with the sort of people who'll open their eyes.

I am under no illusion regarding the de facto status of women in Western societies, nor the massive under-reporting of crimes against them. Have you contemplated the possibility that the latter is even more extremely under-reported in Muslim communities, or the effects of formal or quasi-formal suppression of them there? I would think despite the amount of progress that has yet to be made in capitalist democracies, a woman's lot here is significantly less arduous than in Muslim societies.

As for ghettoisation, there is indeed a tendency for likes to coalesce geographically as well as socially - the more so as the alien cultures are differentiated and discriminated against by the natives. As such, the term self-ghettoisation is not a particularly accurate term to use, though it does play a part in the process.

None of this is particularly relevant to "the myth of the moderate Muslim", of course.

By the way, what did you mean by "moderate Muslim" when you started this thread? I must admit to not having thought a lot about it myself. I just have a vague conception of a moderate Muslim being someone who ignores the brutal bits of the Qur'an the way Christians do with the biblical equivalents, or who is merely a nominal Muslim.

[cronus]

It's a soundbite, a meme, not very meaningful at present. I'm planting seeds. Doubt they'll take hold. Not with semtex being so cheap.

[Hermit]

It's a soundbite, a meme, not very meaningful at present. I'm planting seeds. Doubt they'll take hold.

A seed that doesn't take hold is not a meme, nor will it ever become one.

So, what do you mean by "moderate Muslim"?

[Jason]

You are the captain. Given the under-reporting of crimes against women in our society and the misogynistic nature of honour cultures and the Islamic variety in particular maybe your ideas of equality are a tad naive though? I say refugees need de-programming - they should be broken apart and not allowed to self-ghettoise. Placed in neighbourhoods with high diversity, housed close to gay bars etc, so they mix with the sort of people who'll open their eyes.

How do you propose to prevent the kind of psychic fracturing that is the motive force behind the subtle grass-root fonts of terror? It would be nice to have a transexual orgy - I'd love to meet you at the after-party - but I don't see your average muslim surviving the experience without busting a nut in a coffee shop or two, and not in Morocco where coffee is cheap either. Methinks the play is the thing to capture the conscious king. Consciously.

[cronus]

It's a soundbite, a meme, not very meaningful at present. I'm planting seeds. Doubt they'll take hold.

A seed that doesn't take hold is not a meme, nor will it ever become one.

So, what do you mean by "moderate Muslim"?

Probably someone whose religion is diluted by other stuff sufficiently that they don't want to chop my head off.

[JimC]

What we need is for Islam to reach the same degree of fervour as modern day Anglicans...

[DaveDodo007]

There are 1.7 billion Muslims. If all, or even a great number of them were extremists and their supporters you'd be long dead now.

As for the lack of Muslim voices heard opposing the extremists, check this out for example:

Five things Australia's grand mufti may or may not have said about the Paris attacks

If the mainstream media report this sort of thing at all they do that in order to spin it into the opposite of what was actually said.

Didn't I provide you with a list of Muslim leaders who condemned Islamic terrorism before the Paris outrage was half a day old a few days ago, and you dismissed it as a bunch of liars?

I think it may be a good idea if you acquainted yourself with reality. That would make for a welcome change.

Fuck off you terrorist apologist.

I accept that you've got issues, DaveDildo. Please keep on taking those meds.

Totally agree with this someone should send me medical parcels of Jack Daniels and Golden Viginia.

[DaveDodo007]

You are the captain. Given the under-reporting of crimes against women in our society and the misogynistic nature of honour cultures and the Islamic variety in particular maybe your ideas of equality are a tad naive though? I say refugees need de-programming - they should be broken apart and not allowed to self-ghettoise. Placed in neighbourhoods with high diversity, housed close to gay bars etc, so they mix with the sort of people who'll open their eyes.

Don't know if you are joking or not but this covers it very well.

http://www.politico.eu/article/molenbee ... ification/

Just part of the article and everyone here should read the rest.

"Over nine years, I witnessed the neighborhood become increasingly intolerant. Alcohol became unavailable in most shops and supermarkets; I heard stories of fanatics at the Comte des Flandres metro station who pressured women to wear the veil; Islamic bookshops proliferated, and it became impossible to buy a decent newspaper. With an unemployment rate of 30 percent, the streets were eerily empty until late in the morning. Nowhere was there a bar or café where white, black and brown people would mingle. Instead, I witnessed petty crime, aggression, and frustrated youths who spat at our girlfriends and called them “filthy whores.” If you made a remark, you were inevitably scolded and called a racist. There used to be Jewish shops on Chaussée de Gand, but these were terrorized by gangs of young kids and most closed their doors around 2008. Openly gay people were routinely intimidated, and also packed up their bags."

Just watching these cunts try and turn Turkey into an Islamic theocracy make me wish ill will upon them.

[DaveDodo007]

Fuck off you terrorist apologist.

Where did I apologise for terrorism? Quote the apology.

I don't care if every moderate muslim apologises for the terrorists, the dead will still be dead and the injured will still be injured. In the West most religions can mostly rub along with each other, there is one fly in the ointment guess who. This is not a coincidence as it is a feature not a bug of the whole religion. Nobody wants their local muslim shopkeeper punched in the face or a hindu attacked in the street because some BNP member can't tell the difference. Though Islam is the problem and it needs to be dealt with what ever you liberals think (aka you can't reason with the Qur'an.)