So... the First Great Atheist Holy War, who's up for it?

[laklak]

The winners in any battle/conflict decide what is "just". There's no objective right or wrong.

But it's important to distinguish between the people who actually do the beheading and those who just show their support for it. Behead someone and you are likely to wind up dead. That's warfare, no biggie. But killing someone just for associating with someone who beheads someone isn't likely to be a very defensible moral stance.

Give that man a cigar! Yep, it's majority consensus all the way down. The closest thing we have to objective morality is an evolutionary predisposition to altruism under some conditions. Doesn't generally extend to The Other Tribe, though.

It all depends on what "showing support" means. Are you carrying a sign, posting on FB? No problem. Are you materially supporting the beheaders, protecting them, hiding them? Felony murder - you're as guilty as they are and subject to the same penalties, it's Hellfires and Predators for you. Like I said, it's all about drawing lines.

[laklak]

So, now that ISIS has burned another few dozen people alive, have we reached the "fucking just fucking kill all the fucking fuckers" point yet? Of course, according the our esteemed State Department, the real problem is they don't have enough jobs over there. So we should probably set up some sort of jobs program, maybe start beaming Sesame Street to them. Nobody will burn people alive if they grow up with Big Bird, right? Plus Bert and Ernie are gay, which would probably help.

[pErvinalia]

Now that Jordan and Egypt are bombing them, the west can take a back seat. Let them sort it out.

[JimC]

Now that Jordan and Egypt are bombing them, the west can take a back seat. Let them sort it out.

That statement rests on a very shaky premise, that the armed forces involved are minimally competent...

[pErvinalia]

I'm sure they're good enough to bomb people. They use US built warplanes. The real problem is that Egypt probably really doesn't give a shit about ISIS, and are only bombing them now because they killed some Egyptians.

[piscator]

They use US built warplanes.

So you can count on lots of civilian casualties.

That shit never happens with MiGs, only with Lockheed, North American, or General Dynamics aircraft.

[JimC]

Are you being ironic?

[Stein]

So we should sink to their level?

edit: Not that I believe that stat for a second.

That claim is not even made in the linked report.

Q92b (page 219) asks: Do you favor or oppose the following: the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion?

To begin with, the question was not addressed to all Muslims. Only Muslims who favoured the idea of making Sharia government law were asked. Secondly, no overall result was given. The results are listed by country (of which there were 38) in which the question was put. The two countries most in favour were Egypt (86%) and Jordan (83%). On the other end of the spectrum were Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan with 1% each.

Perhaps Piscator got the figure of 74% from the mention that that is the percentage of all Muslims in Egypt who favour the idea of making Sharia official law. At least I hope it was just an honest mistake borne of confusion or faulty memory.

High time to ask him: Piscator, how did you derive the figure of 74%? What's the game?

Stein

[pErvinalia]

The game is Merkan Exceptionalism!! Anything goes as long as it is supportive of Merka!

[laklak]

I thought I saw an exceptional merkin but it turned out she hadn't waxed.

[Brian Peacock]

rEvolutionist is dead right that I'm referencing Hitchens' sellout to the neo-con right on preemptive war and the whole miserable fascist foreign-policy package coming out of W.'s regime. Furthermore, Harris, in addition, subscribes totally to our dumping on the Geneva Conventions and BREAKING OUR OWN LAWs, by the way, in so doing. Duh. Even in the U.S., people like Harris are still viewed as right of center (even though they should really be viewed as downright Fascist).

As to whether or not it is a trait of atheism, it is as much a trait of atheism as the gulags were a trait of socialism. It was not a trait of socialism in Scandinavia, but it was in the Soviet Union. Again, duh.

BTW, I have a feeling that most of rEvolutionist's replies here to Brian Peacock are perfectly self-evident to Brian Peacock already, and B.P.'s just throwing up dust in an effort to underscore just how macho-ly unseriously -- YUK -- he takes these concerns about this growing meme from Harris, Hicks and company. So while rEvolutionist most likely wasted his time re Br. Pea., he has not re this board. What he's saying needs to be said, even though he's not altogether alert to just how much "jokes" can turn totally deadly on a dime in today's culture.

Lest anyone think that I'm somehow alone in being alarmed at the disgusting mow-them-down psyche coming from huge pockets of the atheist community, here's an atheist blogger pointing to the same problem more cogently than I can.

http://overland.org.au/2011/06/the-left ... -pj-myers/

(I wonder what makes me assume that B.P. will studiously avoid this blog link altogether and pretend it hasn't even been introduced; maybe it's time he get HIS shit together.)

Stein

Hmm. Still waiting to see if you've an appetite for the outstanding questions from my previous post. Still waiting for some sort of conclusive link which demonstrates all that you find loathsome about Harris-et-al inspiring people to kill members of the religious community. Still waiting to hear why you think atheists are morally impoverished and what you think we can do to rehabilitate our ethics. Still waiting to see if you fancy quantifying just how responsible Harris-et-al are for the actions of The Facebook Killer, as you called him. Still waiting to find out what the actual connection is between The Facebook Killer being an atheist and a murderer.

I'd happily admit I was being boisterous earlier. Even here, in the mildest and most carefree corner of what passes for 'the atheist communcity, as you call it, we're not unfamiliar with new members rocking up to express how annoying they find atheism and atheists and to try to hold us to account for this and that. And while I might personally find that rather boring and samey I'd still be intereted to know what got you gander up and, more particularly, why you're avoiding spelling out the alternatives for us - as previously requested. If you don't speak plainly then you have nothing but insinuations. Let's put those aside get on with the discussion eh? I think we all get just how much The Facebook Killer has angered you, I just thoutght it was time you put that into some focus for us.

I read the blog post, but I'm not here to defend Hitchens or Harris, or particular atheists or atheism in general. Atheism isn't a pollitical view. It doesn't have a dress code in that respect, and how atheist choose to dress their arguments is their business, so your attempt to hold all atheist to account by it is doomed. If you want my views on politics then you'll have to be specific and direct. If you want my view of atheism then I can tell you that it's just a term used to describe people who don't believe in god or gods.

[JimC]

[piscator]

So we should sink to their level?

edit: Not that I believe that stat for a second.

That claim is not even made in the linked report.

Q92b (page 219) asks: Do you favor or oppose the following: the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim religion?

To begin with, the question was not addressed to all Muslims. Only Muslims who favoured the idea of making Sharia government law were asked. Secondly, no overall result was given. The results are listed by country (of which there were 38) in which the question was put. The two countries most in favour were Egypt (86%) and Jordan (83%). On the other end of the spectrum were Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan with 1% each.

Perhaps Piscator got the figure of 74% from the mention that that is the percentage of all Muslims in Egypt who favour the idea of making Sharia official law. At least I hope it was just an honest mistake borne of confusion or faulty memory.

High time to ask him: Piscator, how did you derive the figure of 74%? What's the game?

Stein

Roundhouse, from going by the way Pew watered down the question and biases for respondents who had working phones and the free time to answer 97 questions about Islam in the world, most likely female-heavy and likely to be not only more educated, but more willing to say what they think others want to hear. I suspect places like Egypt, Iraq, and Niger have less women respondents. Moreover, it's hard to get 88-91% of people to agree they like a cool breeze on a hot day, so it's probably perceived as a matter of Scripture in both Shiiteland and the countries bitten by the Salafi bug.

[piscator]

The game is Merkan Exceptionalism!! Anything goes as long as it is supportive of Merka!

Good morning from Russia. America is exceptional.

[Hermit]

Roundhouse, from going by the way Pew watered down the question and biases for respondents who had working phones and the free time to answer 97 questions about Islam in the world, most likely female-heavy and likely to be not only more educated, but more willing to say what they think others want to hear. I suspect places like Egypt, Iraq, and Niger have less women respondents. Moreover, it's hard to get 88-91% of people to agree they like a cool breeze on a hot day, so it's probably perceived as a matter of Scripture in both Shiiteland and the countries bitten by the Salafi bug.

In short, the PEW report does not say anything like "74% of all Muslims polled think death is the proper punishment for renouncing Islam." You just made it up, then claimed that the result can be inferred after making some "adjustments".

You could teach Phil Jones a lesson or two in creative data massaging. With your assistance he'll soon have a model running that predicts global warming in the 8 - 12°C range by 2065.