Mary

[Forty Two]

I don't think the virgin mary business is in the bible, if I remember rightly.
It's something the church added later.

Yeah, didn't Jesus have three older brothers. How many fucking virgin births can you have?

older brothers by Joseph's previous wife, I guess

Well it depends on who you ask. Most protestants would say that according to the gospels of Matthew and Mark, Joseph did have brothers by Mary. They would say that being married to Joseph of course Mary would go on to have more children and there is nothing about that which would tarnish Christ's or her purity.

The official Catholic position is that "brothers" is a misinterpretation. Some say the brothers were Joseph's sons, other that they weren't brothers at all but cousins or some other relation. They teach that Mary had since she was young devoted herself to God (like a nun) and that Joseph, an old widower was appointed as her guardian and could not touch her. He then had to answer to church authorities when she became pregnant of course.

One of the reasons for the big difference in theology is because the teachings that the Catholic's derive this extra information from is not in the cannon, so protestants would never look at it as valid.

Well, that doesn't really make any of it make more sense, but there's a theology lesson for you anyway

"Mary was a slut." - Paul's Letter to the Ephebophiles, Chapter 1 verse 1.

[rachelbean]

The dogma goes that Mary was conceived via normal sex, but that the Holy Spirit or God rendered it immaculate.

Whose dogma? I'm not aware of any major Christian denomination that believes that, but I don't know all of them so I am very curious where that is coming from!

[Tero]

Eveybody knows Joseph was not the daddy. Perhaps it was rape by the Roman soldier, they were around. So they had to concoct a story. Joseph gets private messages:
Following Joseph and Mary's betrothal in Matthew 1:18, Joseph is troubled in Matthew 1:19–20 because Mary is pregnant. However, in the first of Joseph's three dreams an angel assures him not be afraid to take Mary as his wife, because her child was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
The technology is not noted due to the lack of knowledge about sperm and DNA.

The Mary legend then is entirely from the Catholic church.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual ... ty_of_Mary
The Gospels and so on were written by Jews gone wrong and the entire religion was a missionary project of a couple of wandering preachers such as the gay Paul who could not even talk about sex. Or women.

Good we got all that cleared up.

[Svartalf]

the dogma is pure dog puke, of course

[mistermack]

actually, it's related to both, Mary could stainlessly be impregnated with Jesus because she herself was the fruit of an immaculate birth...

The dogma goes that Mary was conceived via normal sex, but that the Holy Spirit or God rendered it immaculate. The dogma of the Incarnation deals with Mary getting pregnant without any normal insemination process.

That's interesting. I think we were taught wrong at (Catholic) school. I'm pretty sure that they didn't mention the conception of Mary at all.
I always wondered about the Lourdes story, where the Apparition was supposed to say "I am the immaculate conception", which didn't make sense with what we had been taught.
I remember questioning it, and was told that it just meant that she was the immaculate vessel for Jesus.

[Forty Two]

The dogma goes that Mary was conceived via normal sex, but that the Holy Spirit or God rendered it immaculate.

Whose dogma? I'm not aware of any major Christian denomination that believes that, but I don't know all of them so I am very curious where that is coming from!

Catholicism proper.

In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pius IX pronounced and defined that the Blessed Virgin Mary "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."

The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul

.

Thus, putting it bluntly, Anne got a rogering of some sort, and the sperm met the egg. Mary was not conceived by magical means. The magic took place by the infusing of her soul - her animation -- where she was "preserved exempt from the stain of original sin and sanctified by grace before sin could take effect in her soul."

The Virgin Birth occurred after Christ was conceived without a human father banging his mom. Mary was not a virgin birth. Mary's dad fucked Saint Anne. God just intervened right when original sin was to take hold and gave her immunity.

The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immacula ... assumption

[rachelbean]

Sorry 42, I was at work and misread your post thinking you said Jesus was not a virgin birth

[Forty Two]

Sorry 42, I was at work and misread your post thinking you said Jesus was not a virgin birth

Oops! I thought you were asking about the Virgin Mary's conception.

I bet the "stain" of original sin was what medieval Catholic scholars called the wet spot on the mattress?

[rachelbean]

No, I'm pretty well acquainted with the doctrine, including what the immaculate conception is (and how totally strange it is), I just completely misread your previous post

[Forty Two]

No, I'm pretty well acquainted with the doctrine, including what the immaculate conception is (and how totally strange it is), I just completely misread your previous post

I think it's awesome. It's amazing how much the human mind will accept as making perfect sense, if only it is given a couple of immutable "truths" to start with. They go through these machinations, like, "if such and such is true, then it must be the case that..." and so on and forth, and eventually you have a byzantine labyrinth of dogmas that are bizarre and inexplicable, but completely rational based on the premises. Then the Church just labels them "mysteries" so that everyone can just accept them and STFU.

Mary must have been conceived "immaculately" because she gave birth to Jesus, who is the Word, the Son of God. The Holy Spirit could not have impregnated a woman that was guilty of original sin. Mary was the new Eve, so she, like eve, had to have been born without original sin. Then she can be the perfect vessel for God himself. And God could not be fathered by a man, so God had to father himself. Well, not himself, his son, but his son is him in terms of being a tripartite Trinity - Father, Son and Holy spirit - three separate persons who are also the same person.

They "have" to be true, because of the premises on which the Church dogma is based, but nobody in their right mind could believe it is true, so it must be a miraculous mystery. Now, STFU and get on your knees.

[rachelbean]

[laklak]

Joseph probably told her it's wasn't really shagging if they did it standing up.

Saw that one on TV, some girl swore she was a virgin and couldn't be pregnant because for real sex you had to lie down.

[Forty Two]

Joseph probably told her it's wasn't really shagging if they did it standing up.

Saw that one on TV, some girl swore she was a virgin and couldn't be pregnant because for real sex you had to lie down.

Shhhhh..... don't ruin it!

[laklak]

I don't know why I never thought of that one back in high school.

[Forty Two]

I don't know why I never thought of that one back in high school.

Probably because back then things like "you can't just let it stay like that -- it hurts if it stays that way too long.... ." were still effective.