PZ accuses Shermer of rape.

[Jason]

She could certainly face charges of conspiracy to libel if the claim of rape proves false.

BRB Helicopter circling

[Thinking Aloud]

Ok...
What if a friend of his came and told him this story. He believes it (be there evidence or not).
He gets frightened that Shermer might do this to other women and with his blog decides to warn them...
He is the good guy.

Yes, it would still be a stupid thing to do but it is still plausible.

If he'd truly wanted to do that, he could have posted in a way that didn't name names, but would have provided enough clues to anyone genuinely concerned for their safety to figure out who he meant. It's not as if the accused is unknown for being the ladies' man, after all. Or he could have gone about it a different way, still without naming names, by expressing concerns publicly about some information that had come his way regarding the after-dinner activities of a well-respected speaker / author and regular conference-goer, and invited anyone with similar experiences to approach him privately, in order to bring a case or whatever.

It's my feeling that someone with a genuine concern for people's safety would go cautiously and privately, gather information, and present it to law enforcement agencies, and not, in the first instance, name names and libel people on the internet. The latter way smacks entirely of publicity seeking and a desire to damage reputations without any chance of a fair hearing.

[Cormac]

Is it possible Ms Anon could face litigation if her identity is disclosed?

Yes, for precisely the same reasons. If she exists, and she did say what she said, then she can be sued. It might be a bit harder in her case to succeed in the action.

[Jason]

@Faku
But he didn't write this as a scientist, did he?
Sometimes you just go with your emotions regardless of your education or rationality.
Have you never taken someones word for something?

Yes. Regularly on small things, but a public accusation of rape is hardly something I'd do for someone without a good reason (evidence of some kind). That's not cold, it's just rational and responsible. I'd try to do what I could for her, but this, if there is no evidence, could have severe repercussions for her, which should have been this white knight vigilante's first consideration even if he believed her without evidence.

[Bella Fortuna]

Interesting comments on Al Stefanelli's blog (no friend of PZ's, if you're unfamiliar with him): http://alstefanelli.com/2013/08/i-got-y ... /#comments

[Cormac]

@Faku
But he didn't write this as a scientist, did he?
Sometimes you just go with your emotions regardless of your education or rationality.
Have you never taken someones word for something?

@XC
Yes, there is not denying this was stupid of him in a way and it was stupid not seeing this coming #if that is in fact true#.
He is in the shit and Shermer as well
But maybe...
Just maybe...
He saved dozens of women from being sexually abused.

Or maybe he has just ruined the reputation of an entirely innocent person?

Regardless of what happens now, Shermer will never again be seen without the shadow of these rape allegations. It is a horrendous thing to be falsely accused of rape.

Can you imagine how that would feel? The horror and shock at the initial allegation. The sick feeling when you realise that you will never be free of it?

[laklak]

BRB Helicopter circling

Turn off the grow lights!

[Jason]

The sunflowers are out in the garden this time of year.

[Sælir]

@cormac
Yes, I actually can imagine how that would feel.
Can you imagine how it would feel if you had been raped and nobody believed you?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

@XC
Yes, there is not denying this was stupid of him in a way and it was stupid not seeing this coming (if that is in fact true).
He is in the shit and Shermer as well
But maybe...
Just maybe...
He saved dozens of women from being sexually abused.

In much the same way that shooting oneself in the foot saves that bullet being used to kill anyone!

He will probably end up having to publicly apologise to Michael Shermer, admit that his accusations were unfounded and pay him compensation, possibly exposing the identity of the victim in the process!


This is a total fuck-up on his part, whether Shermer is guilty or not!

What he should have done IMO (and still assuming that the accusations had substance) is urge Ms Anon to go public but accept her decision if she chose not to.

[Jason]

Yes, but we don't operate on a system of vigilante justice. There are channels for this kind of thing.

If there is no evidence but she maintains her charge, I'm sorry, but we can never know if they're true or not. Justice ought to work on the presumption of innocence, and does so in most civilised countries that I know of. At least in theory.

[Sælir]

Not, it's not comparable because the bullet doesn't decide to shoot people.

But, Yes, this was really stupid of him but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Not, it's not comparable because the bullet doesn't decide to shoot people.

But, Yes, this was really stupid of him but that doesn't mean it wasn't true.

I can't think of a single post in this thread that claimed it was or wasn't true. However, there have been a lot that correctly insist upon it being hearsay evidence and NOBODY has the right to make public accusations of a major crime based solely on hearsay evidence.

[Cormac]

@cormac
Yes, I actually can imagine how that would feel.
Can you imagine how it would feel if you had been raped and nobody believed you?

Yes, of course!

But it is not a case of "you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs". The stakes are too high for all parties.

If Shermer is innocent, than he has been dragged into this entirely without fault, and there is now no way to recover from that.

[Sælir]

Meh, just checking.
I really have no opinion in this matter (if it's even possible to actually have an opinion in it)