Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

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Exi5tentialist
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Exi5tentialist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:21 pm

JimC wrote:I agree 100% with Dawkin's attack on fundamentalist crap being spouted at Islamic (and other) faith schools, and I agree that such criticism must be expressed robustly. I just think his choice of the word "alien" was unwise, and played into the hands of the Imams, who can claim that Dawkins is aiding and abetting racist attitudes.
So you think it was a slip of the tongue?

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by HomerJay » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:24 pm

PordFrefect wrote:'Atheist' has come to take on many different connotations - due largely to militant and gnu atheists.
Atheist is a word of the Godly, to prejudice the Outsider.

They've been slighting non-believers for a very long time now.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:29 pm

HomerJay wrote:
PordFrefect wrote:'Atheist' has come to take on many different connotations - due largely to militant and gnu atheists.
Atheist is a word of the Godly, to prejudice the Outsider.

They've been slighting non-believers for a very long time now.
I find your syntax hard to follow. It seems like you mean to say that 'atheist' is a term coined by the religious to make those not part of their religion(s) become prejudiced against the religious. Odd.

Anyhow, the appellation 'atheist' has taken on connotations from both sides - most recently, and the ones from which I have reason to no longer identify myself as an atheist, have come from self-identified atheists.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by klr » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:31 pm

Coming late to the party, but:
Pappa wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:"Alien" is a choice of words that Dawkins deliberately uses because of its ambiguous meaning. Of course, Dawkins doesn't mean "foreign" or "not English" does he? He must mean the other meaning of alien - "foreign" and "not English". What a charmer.
I took it as "alien to science".
Implicitly applying Occam's Razor, that's what I took it to mean as well. It's the explanation that bests fits the situation. Any claim that he "must" have been using it another sense is groundless. His (subconscious) language simply reflects his exasperation.

Could he have phrased it differently? Of course. Could he have phrased it differently and preserved the sense of disgust about what's happening? Probably, but TBH I couldn't give a proverbial monkeys. It's a very serious problem he's trying to highlight and if this sort of language gets it wider attention, then I won't complain.
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:34 pm

Either he's a completely incompetent twit or he did it purposefully, subconsciously or not.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Pappa » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:36 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote: Yeah what about the hierarchy I described though? Dawkins sees gradations of niceness in Christianity that he can't or won't see in islam.
I don't think I've ever seen or read Dawkins attack or be hostile about Islam in it's totality, just the facets of it that conflict with science or the facets that he feels are abusive/oppressive to children/adults.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Exi5tentialist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:38 pm

klr wrote:Coming late to the party, but:
Pappa wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:"Alien" is a choice of words that Dawkins deliberately uses because of its ambiguous meaning. Of course, Dawkins doesn't mean "foreign" or "not English" does he? He must mean the other meaning of alien - "foreign" and "not English". What a charmer.
I took it as "alien to science".
Implicitly applying Occam's Razor, that's what I took it to mean as well. It's the explanation that bests fits the situation. Any claim that he "must" have been using it another sense is groundless. His (subconscious) language simply reflects his exasperation.

Could he have phrased it differently? Of course. Could he have phrased it differently and preserved the sense of disgust about what's happening? Probably, but TBH I couldn't give a proverbial monkeys. It's a very serious problem he's trying to highlight and if this sort of language gets it wider attention, then I won't complain.
Ah yes Occam's Razor, otherwise known as letting an islamophobic bigot off the hook.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by klr » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 pm

Pappa wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote: Yeah what about the hierarchy I described though? Dawkins sees gradations of niceness in Christianity that he can't or won't see in islam.
I don't think I've ever seen or read Dawkins attack or be hostile about Islam in it's totality, just the facets of it that conflict with science or the facets that he feels are abusive/oppressive to children/adults.
None here either. Actually, I'm surprised he doesn't take more flak for (in general) picking on Christianity more than he "should".
Exi5tentialist wrote: ...

Ah yes Occam's Razor, otherwise known as letting an islamophobic bigot off the hook.
If you're so confident about what he meant, I presume you'll be looking for him to be prosecuted for hate speech.

The Internet: A place where someone sitting behind a keyboard can make free with grandiose assertions without a shred of evidence. :roll:
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:45 pm

klr wrote: If you're so confident about what he meant, I presume you'll be looking for him to be prosecuted for hate speech.
Or write a letter to the editor of every one of the many newsrags calling him out on his deliberate ambiguity and the racial/cultural clash it promotes. I understand he sometimes replies to such things.

Perhaps he'll let us know his intent and you'll have your evidence. :roll:

Also Occam's Razor is rarely useful in politics and propaganda.
Last edited by Jason on Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by colubridae » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:48 pm

Exi5tentialist wrote:
JimC wrote:I agree 100% with Dawkin's attack on fundamentalist crap being spouted at Islamic (and other) faith schools, and I agree that such criticism must be expressed robustly. I just think his choice of the word "alien" was unwise, and played into the hands of the Imams, who can claim that Dawkins is aiding and abetting racist attitudes.
So you think it was a slip of the tongue?
Classic.

Dawkins makes good sense on all aspects of religion, religious heirarchies, religious heirarchies within a sect, etc..

He cannot be refuted on that score. Fuck. What can I do.
I know! I’ll pick on some vague abstruse point and subtle trash Dawkins.
Brill. No-one will notice what I’m doing.
No-one will notice the Islamic apologetics.

All I need do is subtly inject a controversial ‘ad hom’ and we’re off to the races.
The real value of what Dawkins says will be covertly diminished.

Allah! I’m such a genius! Not only that, but no-one will realise what I’m up to.
Gawd’s posts are so ineffectual compared to mine, they make the perfect stalking horse.
He doesn’t even realise that his dumb-ass posts are harming the cause of Islamic apologetics.

:hehe:
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Exi5tentialist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:51 pm

colubridae wrote:
Exi5tentialist wrote:
JimC wrote:I agree 100% with Dawkin's attack on fundamentalist crap being spouted at Islamic (and other) faith schools, and I agree that such criticism must be expressed robustly. I just think his choice of the word "alien" was unwise, and played into the hands of the Imams, who can claim that Dawkins is aiding and abetting racist attitudes.
So you think it was a slip of the tongue?
Classic.

Dawkins makes good sense on all aspects of religion, religious heirarchies, religious heirarchies within a sect, etc..

He cannot be refuted on that score. Fuck. What can I do.
I know! I’ll pick on some vague abstruse point and subtle trash Dawkins.
Brill. No-one will notice what I’m doing.
No-one will notice the Islamic apologetics.

All I need do is subtly inject a controversial ‘ad hom’ and we’re off to the races.
The real value of what Dawkins says will be covertly diminished.

Allah! I’m such a genius! Not only that, but no-one will realise what I’m up to.
Gawd’s posts are so ineffectual compared to mine, they make the perfect stalking horse.
He doesn’t even realise that his dumb-ass posts are harming the cause of Islamic apologetics.

:hehe:
So do you think it was a slip of the tongue?

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by klr » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:13 pm

PordFrefect wrote:
klr wrote: If you're so confident about what he meant, I presume you'll be looking for him to be prosecuted for hate speech.
Or write a letter to the editor of every one of the many newsrags calling him out on his deliberate ambiguity and the racial/cultural clash it promotes. I understand he sometimes replies to such things.
Someone may want to waste their time writing letters (or more likely emails) to all and sundry publications, but "waste of time" is what it would be. Whatever other faults they may have, editorial staff can usually tell whether something is newsworthy or not.
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:17 pm

Dawkins says one word, "alien" and people are freaking out. Meanwhile:
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
Image
Image
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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Exi5tentialist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:20 pm

klr wrote:
PordFrefect wrote:
klr wrote: If you're so confident about what he meant, I presume you'll be looking for him to be prosecuted for hate speech.
Or write a letter to the editor of every one of the many newsrags calling him out on his deliberate ambiguity and the racial/cultural clash it promotes. I understand he sometimes replies to such things.
Someone may want to waste their time writing letters (or more likely emails) to all and sundry publications, but "waste of time" is what it would be. Whatever other faults they may have, editorial staff can usually tell whether something is newsworthy or not.
So do you think it was a slip of the tongue?

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Re: Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

Post by Exi5tentialist » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:21 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Dawkins says one word, "alien" and people are freaking out. Meanwhile:
Trigger Warning!!!1! :
Image
So do you think it was a slip of the tongue?

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