Dawkins on Alien Rubbish

[Hermit]

Being right isn't enough - the truth must be expressed wisely, intelligently and with foresight. There is a larger picture here. Population dynamics, ghettoisation and social attitudes. Without tact there is a real risk of inflaming a situation, unleashing forces that can not be readily or easily put back in their boxes. Any damn fool can start a war(of words and worse).

Dawkins was clearly and unambiguously talking about religious fundamentalism when referring to creationist teachings in muslim faith schools as "alien rubbish". He was also clearly and unambiguously referring to the oppression of women in islamic societies when he described to the burka as 'the full bin-liner thing'. If you require more "tact" than that, it becomes indistinguishable from accomodationism. That did not work under Neville Chamberlain, and it is just as likely to fail in this instance. Dawkins is focused full-time on fighting institutionalised, organised, primitive, superstitious forces that try to overturn secularism, humanism and a scientific approach to knowledge in favour of theocracy. I think it's a bit much to expect him to focus directly on racism, poverty, capitalism and crime as well.

I wouldn't call it accomodation to take a look at the wider situation.

I wouldn't either. What I would call accomodation, is to refrain from referring to creationism as 'alien rubbish' or burkas as akin to 'bin-liners' lest one be accused of fomenting islamophobia.

[Atheist-Lite]

Being right isn't enough - the truth must be expressed wisely, intelligently and with foresight. There is a larger picture here. Population dynamics, ghettoisation and social attitudes. Without tact there is a real risk of inflaming a situation, unleashing forces that can not be readily or easily put back in their boxes. Any damn fool can start a war(of words and worse).

Dawkins was clearly and unambiguously talking about religious fundamentalism when referring to creationist teachings in muslim faith schools as "alien rubbish". He was also clearly and unambiguously referring to the oppression of women in islamic societies when he described to the burka as 'the full bin-liner thing'. If you require more "tact" than that, it becomes indistinguishable from accomodationism. That did not work under Neville Chamberlain, and it is just as likely to fail in this instance. Dawkins is focused full-time on fighting institutionalised, organised, primitive, superstitious forces that try to overturn secularism, humanism and a scientific approach to knowledge in favour of theocracy. I think it's a bit much to expect him to focus directly on racism, poverty, capitalism and crime as well.

I wouldn't call it accomodation to take a look at the wider situation.

I wouldn't either. What I would call accomodation, is to refrain from referring to creationism as 'alien rubbish' or burkas as akin to 'bin-liners' lest one be accused of fomenting islamophobia.

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish' and with regards calling burkas 'bin-liners' isn't it better to confront the honour culture that makes burkas necessary in the first place?

[Ronja]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish'

Could you justify that? Better as in how and why?

[Atheist-Lite]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish'

Could you justify that? Better as in how and why?

It avoids 'accidently' OK'aying verbal bullying...whilst also being objective and straighforward about the issue.

[Hermit]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish' and with regards calling burkas 'bin-liners' isn't it better to confront the honour culture that makes burkas necessary in the first place?

There actually is a place for both: expressions denoting outrage and techniques of ridicule in addition to saying 'x is wrong' and confronting y. The combination of all those approaches - and I challenge you to argue that Dawkins ignores your preferred method - is more effective than any one in isolation.

[Jason]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish' and with regards calling burkas 'bin-liners' isn't it better to confront the honour culture that makes burkas necessary in the first place?

There actually is a place for both: expressions denoting outrage and techniques of ridicule in addition to saying 'x is wrong' and confronting y. The combination of all those approaches - and I challenge you to argue that Dawkins ignores your preferred method - is more effective than any one in isolation.

This sort of thinking is why I don't call myself an atheist much anymore. I've evolved beyond that.

[Atheist-Lite]

He learns from his mistakes....each is different when they do occur.

[Ronja]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish' and with regards calling burkas 'bin-liners' isn't it better to confront the honour culture that makes burkas necessary in the first place?

There actually is a place for both: expressions denoting outrage and techniques of ridicule in addition to saying 'x is wrong' and confronting y. The combination of all those approaches - and I challenge you to argue that Dawkins ignores your preferred method - is more effective than any one in isolation.

.

Thanks, Seraph!

[Atheist-Lite]

It is better to say 'creationism is wrong' than to call it 'alien rubbish' and with regards calling burkas 'bin-liners' isn't it better to confront the honour culture that makes burkas necessary in the first place?

There actually is a place for both: expressions denoting outrage and techniques of ridicule in addition to saying 'x is wrong' and confronting y. The combination of all those approaches - and I challenge you to argue that Dawkins ignores your preferred method - is more effective than any one in isolation.

.

Thanks, Seraph!

In the UK you are dealing with vulnerable communities...and a hostile larger population. Hope you and Richard Dawkins know what you're up to?

[Jason]

They don't know what they're (not) up to. Full stop.

[Atheist-Lite]

They don't know what they're (not) up to. Full stop.

That's what I'm beginning to think. Left hand not watching the right.

[Hermit]

In the UK you are dealing with vulnerable communities...and a hostile larger population.

"They" know very well what "they" are up to. "They" know that those vulnerable communities are more at risk by fundamentalist islamism from within than hostility from the outside. It is not implausible to argue that the latter is founded on the outrageous and ridiculous customs and morae within to begin with. It really is worth pointing out just how ridiculous and outrageous they are in the broadest possible way. Mumbling away in the ivory tower about the intellectual wrongness of islamic creationism and the burka will not get much of a result.

And it's not as if Dawkins holds back in regard to making his outrage of the christian religion known either. Looking at it that way makes it even more difficult to argue that he is aiding racists because it is pretty fucking obvious that his focus is on fighting religion when he mentions 'alien rubbish'. Those of you calling for tact and those of you accusing Dawkins of abetting racism would do well to get that into your skulls already.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Ta.

Richard Dawkins claims Muslim schools are having a "pernicious" influence on children who are having their minds "stuffed with alien rubbish" such as claims the world is only 6,000 years old

Well, the paper seems to know what he meant by that term.

That's irrelevant, the fun is attacking RD on specious grounds. Don't you know nuffin?

[Atheist-Lite]

Ta.

Richard Dawkins claims Muslim schools are having a "pernicious" influence on children who are having their minds "stuffed with alien rubbish" such as claims the world is only 6,000 years old

Well, the paper seems to know what he meant by that term.

That's irrelevant, the fun is attacking RD on specious grounds. Don't you know nuffin?

It's the British way. We attack our successful relentosuly. Hoping to bring them back down to earth. We willingly hand out two red hot bricks to any who think they can outpace all but the slowest. The exact opposite of you Americans...we really do have it in for the successful here.

[Jason]

In the UK you are dealing with vulnerable communities...and a hostile larger population.

"They" know very well what "they" are up to. "They" know that those vulnerable communities are more at risk by fundamentalist islamism from within than hostility from the outside. It is not implausible to argue that the latter is founded on the outrageous and ridiculous customs and morae within to begin with. It really is worth pointing out just how ridiculous and outrageous they are in the broadest possible way. Mumbling away in the ivory tower about the intellectual wrongness of islamic creationism and the burka will not get much of a result.

And it's not as if Dawkins holds back in regard to making his outrage of the christian religion known either. Looking at it that way makes it even more difficult to argue that he is aiding racists because it is pretty fucking obvious that his focus is on fighting religion when he mentions 'alien rubbish'. Those of you calling for tact and those of you accusing Dawkins of abetting racism would do well to get that into your skulls already.

It seems like you and 'they' are angry, riotous and unabashedly assertive enough for both of us. So I think I'll sit in my ivory tower and sip tea for the time being tyvm.