My Take On Jesus

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Bruce Burleson
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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:39 pm

nonverbal wrote:Bruce, would you say that Hume was foolish not to trust in the kinds of possibilities you're mentioning? You're certainly welcome to trust in whatever you choose to go with, but keep in mind that Jesus was only one of many miracle workers that plied their trade during his time. Tricking illiterate, superstitious and ignorant people at the time when Jesus lived (assuming for the moment that Jesus is more than a composite literary character) had ancient roots even back then. Magical trickery was no less ubiquitous than it is today. The Duckphup effect, as its author acknowledges in his post above, is uncommonly difficult to expose and utilize. He also seems to acknowledge that it may be illusion-based. To expand on that possibility, consider the enormous number of people who get odd hunches every minute of every day. It must be in the millions, every minute. If one hunch comes out valid every so often, how many billions of invalid ones preceded it? A broken clock is accurate twice a day, and the Duckphup effect starts to look pretty silly when examined with Humian skepticism.
I'm not saying he was foolish. If you are not convinced by what someone says, you are not foolish to reject it. But you can set your standards too high and miss reality. Hume said that it was not reasonable to believe any report of a miracle. True, the Duckphup Effect is not a miracle in the classic sense, but it is something, if true, for which there is absolutely no current explanation. That puts it in the miracle class. But we do not know if it is really all that strange or rare. It may be that, with a slight adjustment in our way of thinking and acting, such events would happen on a regular basis, and then we would have to adjust our view of the universe.

I've given you my reasons for believing that he is telling the truth. Do you believe him? If not, is he lying? Hume has made us feel irrational for believing an otherwise credible report just because he assumes that something that seems very out of the ordinary is so in fact. We don't know that is the case. So, in Duckphup's case, I don't think I am unreasonable for accepting his story, but likewise would not think Hume or you to be unreasonable for rejecting it. I apparently have a greater tolerance for the currently unexplained.

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:06 am

Bottom line - I believe because I feel God. And you know what they say: "If it feels god, do it."

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by FBM » Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:17 am

Bruce Burleson wrote:Bottom line - I believe because I feel God. And you know what they say: "If it feels god, do it."
I hope you can understand why that feeling isn't sufficient for us agnostics and atheists. There are lots of feelings that we attribute to one cause, only later to find out it wasn't caused by what we thought. For example. That's why carefully chosen and scrutinized evidence is so crucial, refraining from going with what feels good when it contradicts evidence, or when there is no credible evidence at all for it. If scientists could just declare what feels good as a theory for the structure of the atom or the universe...
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:01 pm

FBM wrote:
Bruce Burleson wrote:Bottom line - I believe because I feel God. And you know what they say: "If it feels god, do it."
I hope you can understand why that feeling isn't sufficient for us agnostics and atheists. There are lots of feelings that we attribute to one cause, only later to find out it wasn't caused by what we thought. For example. That's why carefully chosen and scrutinized evidence is so crucial, refraining from going with what feels good when it contradicts evidence, or when there is no credible evidence at all for it. If scientists could just declare what feels good as a theory for the structure of the atom or the universe...
You're no fun. Feeling great feels great. You should try it. It is it's own reality. I have carefully scrutinized it and found it to feel great. This is not about atoms - it's about God feeling good and feeling good about God.

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Feck » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:20 pm

Bruce Burleson wrote:
FBM wrote:
Bruce Burleson wrote:Bottom line - I believe because I feel God. And you know what they say: "If it feels god, do it."
I hope you can understand why that feeling isn't sufficient for us agnostics and atheists. There are lots of feelings that we attribute to one cause, only later to find out it wasn't caused by what we thought. For example. That's why carefully chosen and scrutinized evidence is so crucial, refraining from going with what feels good when it contradicts evidence, or when there is no credible evidence at all for it. If scientists could just declare what feels good as a theory for the structure of the atom or the universe...
You're no fun. Feeling great feels great. You should try it. It is it's own reality. I have carefully scrutinized it and found it to feel great. This is not about atoms - it's about God feeling good and feeling good about God.
You should try Heroin it feels like that ...until the truth starts to dawn on you !
:hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog: :hoverdog:
Give me the wine , I don't need the bread

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by FBM » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:51 pm

Bruce Burleson wrote:You're no fun. Feeling great feels great. You should try it. It is it's own reality. I have carefully scrutinized it and found it to feel great. This is not about atoms - it's about God feeling good and feeling good about God.
Yeah, just ask any of the long-term members. I'm a real stick in the mud. And thanks for the offer, but I was addicted for years. Finally got off it. Not methadone, tho: science and philosophy (read: reality). Step One is admitting you have a problem... :tup:

Feck wrote:You should try Heroin it feels like that ...until the truth starts to dawn on you !
It's probably easier to treat heroin addiction than Super-sky-daddy-claus-loves-me-so-I'm-really-important addiction.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:38 pm

Feck wrote:You should try Heroin it feels like that ...until the truth starts to dawn on you !
Heroin is bad for you. God is good for you. Or at least that is my experience. And my experience is the only experience I have experienced. Are you experienced?

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:40 pm

FBM wrote: Yeah, just ask any of the long-term members. I'm a real stick in the mud. And thanks for the offer, but I was addicted for years. Finally got off it. Not methadone, tho: science and philosophy (read: reality). Step One is admitting you have a problem...
See, that's just it - I don't have a problem.

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Andrew » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:59 pm

Bruce Burleson wrote:See, that's just it - I don't have a problem.
(Andrew): Ahh...they all say that. And you could quit any time you wanted to, huh?

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:32 pm

Andrew wrote:
Bruce Burleson wrote:See, that's just it - I don't have a problem.
(Andrew): Ahh...they all say that. And you could quit any time you wanted to, huh?
Hi, Andrew, what brings you here? Why should I quit if I don't have a problem? I do have a problem with internet forum addiction, but that's a different issue.

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Andrew » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:51 pm

Bruce Burleson wrote:Hi, Andrew, what brings you here? Why should I quit if I don't have a problem?
(Andrew): Hi, Bruce Burleson. I'm here to keep an eye on you. Addicts never admit to having a problem until they hit bottom. You're just not there yet.
Bruce Burleson wrote:I do have a problem with internet forum addiction, but that's a different issue.
(Andrew): But still an addiction?

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:59 pm

Andrew wrote:
Bruce Burleson wrote:Hi, Andrew, what brings you here? Why should I quit if I don't have a problem?
(Andrew): Hi, Bruce Burleson. I'm here to keep an eye on you. Addicts never admit to having a problem until they hit bottom. You're just not there yet.
Bruce Burleson wrote:I do have a problem with internet forum addiction, but that's a different issue.
(Andrew): But still an addiction?
Yes. But I've changed corners. Now, hitting bottom as a forum junky would be spending so much time on it that I lost my law license, my family and my income. Hitting bottom as a heroin addict would be lying in a ditch somewhere with an dirty needle in my arm. But what would hitting bottom look like for a Jesus junky, since it causes no problem for me or anyone else?? I'm just askin'.

And are you really 70 years old? Damn!

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Andrew
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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Andrew » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:01 am

Bruce Burleson wrote:But what would hitting bottom look like for a Jesus junky, since it causes no problem for me or anyone else?? I'm just askin'.
(Andew): Everyone has their own bottom. You'll know it when you get there.
As an addict, you're in no position to say what's causing problems for anyone. Just relax and enjoy the ride.
Bruce Burleson wrote:And are you really 70 years old? Damn!
(Andrew): Time flies, don't it?

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Bruce Burleson » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:42 am

Andrew wrote: (Andew): Everyone has their own bottom. You'll know it when you get there.
Thanks for the Queen link. Some bottoms are better than others, I think we would all agree.

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Re: My Take On Jesus

Post by Loki_999 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:22 am

Bruce Burleson wrote:
Feck wrote:You should try Heroin it feels like that ...until the truth starts to dawn on you !
Heroin is bad for you. God is good for you. Or at least that is my experience. And my experience is the only experience I have experienced. Are you experienced?
Maybe god is good for you because it satisfies your needs in some way, but you are still lying to yourself (from my perspective of course). Theoretically you could get the same high from being a scientologist (as i understand even better as their members are more brainwashed than the majority of god believers)

The whole issue for me, besides the obvious lack of evidence for any sort of supernatural being, is why do people need god? I've read Dawkins and Winston and several other authors who all explain why people believe in god or why they feel the need, and sometimes i've also thought how nice it would be to be reassured by a cosmic sky daddy.... but underneath it all, i know who I am, and I know my place in the universe, and I accept it. On the cosmic scale of things I am completely insignificant, but looking from the other end, the microscopic world, I am of extreme importance for the DNA living in my body (but not so important for DNA in general as there is plenty of other life around). To (mis)-quote Carl Sagan - "Each one of us is a multitude". We only exist to give our DNA a better chance of reproducing.

Just been watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos over the last few days. Not seen this since I was a kid. Just watching it fills me with a sense of awe and amazement that is perhaps comparable with the high you get from Jesus. Life, the Universe, and Everything, is so simply awesome and awe-inspiring, that there is no need for a creator to make it even more spectacular or for it to exist in the first place. When you really open your mind to the possibilities you can see how what we perceive as the universe is probably from a very limited viewpoint and that there is probably a lot more to the nature of everything in general than we even suspect... but its all natural.... no deities need apply for the job of filling in the gaps.
FBM wrote:Set him on fire.

Edit: Whatever you do, don't set him on fire. That would be wrong. I just looked it up.

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