Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Holy Crap!
User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39897
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:20 pm

JimC wrote:1. Is it logically possible for an entity who would, in most other respects, fit the god definition, to be non-supernatural?
It is conceivable, therefore ontologically justifiable to say, that there could be beings with such command over the laws of nature as to be indistinguishable from the traditional conception of a deity. This, of course, says nothing about the logical possibility of such a being, nor does even granting the logical possibility of the thing, even in some if not all possible worlds, go any further in support a claim for such a being.
JimC wrote:2. As a possible example of #1, consider an immensely powerful and intelligent alien, perhaps from another universe, who understands the deep physics of the universe to a level well beyond our current knowledge. Just as many aspects of our current technology seem to disobey "natural" laws to a Cro-Magnon, its actions would to us. Some have speculated about the possibility of such a being (presumably acting from another, larger universe) actually "creating" our universe, or at least running it as a super-simulation on a vast computer...

However, such a being is scarcely likely to fit all the other descriptors of the various gods imagined by various tribes of our past, nor would it be likely to exhibit the properties of the modern version of a personal, caring god; no more than a lab scientists cares about the individual bacteria in her petri dish...
Indeed, even granting the possibility of such an entity being indistinguishable from a deity, would it follow that we'd be obliged to wear a special hat on a Friday, mutilate the genitals of our children, shun those who do not meet this-or-that particular standard of behaviour, or even kill those who challenge the primacy of our ideals?

I suspect that even the demonstrable existence of such an entity would not stop people making claims on its behalf or trying to regulate the thoughts and actions of others on its presumed authority.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
rainbow
Posts: 13753
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:10 am
About me: Egal wie dicht du bist, Goethe war Dichter
Where ever you are, Goethe was a Poet.
Location: Africa
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by rainbow » Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:56 pm

Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:Did the Universe come to exist without a cause?
If you presume that everything must have a cause you'll have to ask why the creator of the universe did not.

If you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I don't.

Is that a "Yes" or a "No"?
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60696
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:11 pm

No one knows how the universe came to exist, troll. There are theories, and some of them include causeless instantiation.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:12 pm

rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:Did the Universe come to exist without a cause?
If you presume that everything must have a cause you'll have to ask why the creator of the universe did not.

If you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I don't.
You don't presume either? In that case what are you driving at with your question?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60696
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:15 pm

Trolling? :ask:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39897
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:41 pm

We also have to unpick the circular definitions applied to supernatural deities, you know, like, God is that which is supernatural, that which is supernatural is God, etc.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
rainbow
Posts: 13753
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:10 am
About me: Egal wie dicht du bist, Goethe war Dichter
Where ever you are, Goethe was a Poet.
Location: Africa
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 am

Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:Did the Universe come to exist without a cause?
If you presume that everything must have a cause you'll have to ask why the creator of the universe did not.

If you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I don't.
You don't presume either?
I presume you are unable to answer the question.
Am I correct?
In that case what are you driving at with your question?
Exactly what the question asks.
Please answer.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Hermit » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:25 am

rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:
rainbow wrote:Did the Universe come to exist without a cause?
If you presume that everything must have a cause you'll have to ask why the creator of the universe did not.

If you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I don't.
You don't presume either?
I presume you are unable to answer the question.
Am I correct?
In that case what are you driving at with your question?
Exactly what the question asks.
Please answer.
Right. I am unable to answer the question.

Now answer these: Do you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused? If so, on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by mistermack » Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:58 am

The thing is, is ''natural'' something explainable by current knowledge, or is it just something that exists ? Many people claim that, if it exists, it's natural. Even if we don't understand it yet.
It's just words.
The OP is a good question, it's one I've often pondered.

When white men went to South America originally, they were thought of as gods, because of their horses. That was supernatural to the resident south americans. How one creature could become two, and then one again.

The same would apply to aliens with superior technology to us. It's supernatural, till we understand it.

However, it is highly likely that the human mind can never actually understand infinity.
So any alien that has INFINITE characteristics will have to be supernatural, by definition.

That's why the religious usually invent infinite imaginary friends. They've already worked that one out.

But of course, others would say that if something infinite exists, it's not supernatural, just by virtue of it's existence. So the only truly supernatural god, is one that doesn't exist. :biggrin:
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
rainbow
Posts: 13753
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:10 am
About me: Egal wie dicht du bist, Goethe war Dichter
Where ever you are, Goethe was a Poet.
Location: Africa
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by rainbow » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:43 pm

Hermit wrote:Right. I am unable to answer the question.

Now answer these: Do you presume that the creator of the universe did not need to be caused?
If the Creator were Eternal, then the question doesn't arise.
If the Creator were not eternal, then it follows that they would need a cause.
If so, on what grounds do you justify that the universe did?
I don't. I asked a question.
If the Universe did arise without a cause, then it might be termed a Supernatural Event, since everything else in the natural world appears to have a cause.
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60696
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:48 pm

No it doesn't. QM allows for uncaused events. This was explained to you earlier.
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by mistermack » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:36 am

rEvolutionist wrote:No it doesn't. QM allows for uncaused events. This was explained to you earlier.
I allow for the possibility of a loving god who had a baby called Jesus.
That doesn't mean it happened.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60696
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:47 am

No shit, Sherlock. :roll:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 41026
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Svartalf » Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:56 am

mistermack wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:No it doesn't. QM allows for uncaused events. This was explained to you earlier.
I allow for the possibility of a loving god who had a baby called Jesus.
That doesn't mean it happened.
I don't, a loving god would not allow evil in the world.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39897
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Are putative god(s) supernatural?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:13 am

That's just the special way that he loves you.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests