Marriage and Atheism

[Theophilus]

secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism

You've got it wrong, again.

It's not about imposing anything, it's about stopping Isolationism. There is a huge difference between saying "Our culture is better" and "There are other ways of looking at things."

Cool, so if people see there are other ways of looking at things (I always like to look at something from several angles myself) but still prefer to live within their own strong cultural/religious communities (with it's accepted norms and "laws"), that is O.K.?

[Thinking Aloud]

secular society cannot impose its culture-free secularism

You've got it wrong, again.

It's not about imposing anything, it's about stopping Isolationism. There is a huge difference between saying "Our culture is better" and "There are other ways of looking at things."

Cool, so if people see there are other ways of looking at things (I always like to look at something from several angles myself) but still prefer to live within their own strong cultural/religious communities (with it's accepted norms and "laws"), that is O.K.?

As long as those norms and "laws" don't harm, threaten, un-necessarily restrict, deny rights, deny education, and so on, sure. And as long as no-one is prevented from leaving that culture/religion to further their own development, why not!

Unfortunately, that's so often the case, and frequently to the advantage of a privileged few.

[Trolldor]

Provided you've actually experienced cultures outside of your own, I don't care what you choose so long as you don't hurt or impose on anybody. That goes for everyone whether you belong to a minority or the majority.

There are, to my knowledge, third generation immigrants who can't speak a Word of English in Australia because they've been so culturally isolated. That's just language. Imagine what's happening in such cultures where there's so much distrust of outside forces.

[Theophilus]

Provided you've actually experienced cultures outside of your own, I don't care what you choose so long as you don't hurt or impose on anybody. That goes for everyone whether you belong to a minority or the majority.

That's cool; thanks for clarifying. Would you would agree that there is some age of maturity before which a parent takes responsibility for their child (and so will impose a certain will on them, making sure they attend school, go to bed at a certain time, teaching them good manners, taking them to church, ensuring they eat good food rather than just chocolate and crisps, ensuring they do their homework, ensuring they help around the house, for example). Would we agree that parents have prime responsibility and accountability for bringing up children with only broad limits set by society (e.g. don't beat or starve your child)?

[Trolldor]

I don't think any parent should have the right to tell their child what religion to follow, what political party to vote for, which race or culture is superior to all the others, which block of Mud called a country is the greatest.

[Thinking Aloud]

(and so will impose a certain will on them, making sure they attend school, go to bed at a certain time, teaching them good manners, taking them to church, ensuring they eat good food rather than just chocolate and crisps, ensuring they do their homework, ensuring they help around the house, for example)

The rest I'd consider to be excellent examples to set. The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

[Theophilus]

I don't think any parent should have the right to tell their child what religion to follow, what political party to vote for, which race or culture is superior to all the others, which block of Mud called a country is the greatest.

But I presume you wouldn't ban parents taking their children to church, mosque of synagogue?

I'm just trying to put this into a real life cultural setting BAA. I think this is a complex topic and I do have many sympathies with your view (would I want a child brought up a satanist?). So I'm pushing back on you to try to see how this fits into a real society where enculturation is not generally forcibly imposed (though it may be in some cases) but is actually a result of normal and hopefully loving parenting within a certain cultural environment. Most children are brought up accepting certain norms and values, as demonstrated by their parents and many of them will carry those values through their lives, albeit with a usual rebellious phase in the teens and early twenties, usually returning to the values of their parents when they themselves have children. The Jesuits, of course had their famous saying "give me the boy until he is eight and I'll give you the man", recognising how important and formative the early years are.

[Theophilus]

The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

So who decides what is of value and what not? You and I don't share all the same values (though I imagine there will a substantial overlap), and I'm cool with that. But when it comes to my culture and my children why should I accept your values (and vice versa)? Though perhaps you're not arguing that I should accept your values?

[Trolldor]

Everything or nothing. If a child is considered able to be adopted to a religion, then the child should be brought to all religions. If the child isn't considered capable of choosing a religion for himself, then you are not to choose one for him.

[Thinking Aloud]

The one I've struck-through adds nothing by its inclusion.

So who decides what is of value and what not? You and I don't share all the same values (though I imagine there will a substantial overlap), and I'm cool with that. But when it comes to my culture and my children why should I accept your values (and vice versa)? Though perhaps you're not arguing that I should accept your values?

I can't force you to, and I wouldn't force you to, much as I'd perhaps like to convince you! Having spent the best part of my life going to church, I'm of the opinion that it added nothing positive to my existence, and if anything added unnecessary repression, anxiety, fear and superiority to my mindset for too many years - a position I'm still recovering from.

I see no value in anyone taking children to church, or encouraging belief in something through faith.

[Theophilus]

I can't force you to, and I wouldn't force you to, much as I'd perhaps like to convince you!

Ah, yes, I have no problem with anyone trying to convince me of anything.

[Theophilus]

Everything or nothing. If a child is considered able to be adopted to a religion, then the child should be brought to all religions. If the child isn't considered capable of choosing a religion for himself, then you are not to choose one for him.

So how do you imagine that working in real society and cultures? Does that simply extend to teaching comparative religion in school (which I think is a good thing; ignorance of other views and beliefs is no virtue in my book) alongside parents bringing up children in their own faith? For example we went to church as a family, prayed at home together daily, read the bible daily, discussed faith daily (none of that was heavy; it was all done in a light way and we could often find things to laugh at together). Our children have also visited a synagogue, a Mosque and a temple and have a reasonable grounding in the basic beliefs of other faiths. But there is no denying that our children have been brought up, lovingly and gently, in a strongly Christian culture. Of course our children were also baptised as babies, as is the norm in our part of the church.

You see BAA I think cultural and faith traditions are just "everyday life" for many of us and so what you may see as a minority "ghetto" those within the culture may see as just normal life, albeit one that is not the majority way of life in whatever country they are in.

[Trolldor]

No.
Your children have no idea of those cultures aside from what you've told them, or what they've been told by the media. You told them that your religion was the right religion, that it was the one they were to follow. They had no choice in the matter.

Tell me, when you were teaching them about the Christian faith did you also teach them, as equally with the same detail and time, about Islam? Or Hinduism? If you didn't, then you did not raise your child with an education in religions. You raised them as Christians, you robbed them of their right to choose for themselves.

[Theophilus]

So what would you want to change in the real life setting (you can use the example of my family of you wish, or pick any other real cultural setting)? And how would you go about implementing change you would like to see?

[Trolldor]

*sigh* I've already explained. A child must be equally exposed to all religions. The deeper you invest your child in one religion, the deeper you invest the child in every single other religion. If you aren't willing to do that, then don't try and force your child to believe what you do.